Open sourcing pouet.net ?
category: offtopic [glöplog]
*oh jesus fucking christ Adok you're such a loser*
I don't like people who write "we" when they didn't code one fucking line - that's all kthxbai.
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...features column names in either French or non-descript English...
Brutally off-topic, but this reminds me of a calendar we once had at work. The January photo featured a goldfish in a fish bowl being watched from behind by a curious piglet, its nose magnified via refraction.
The French caption read: Bonne Année, gros nez!
The English read: Happy New Year!
Yes. It's true. I now return you to regularly scheduled Adok-inspired facepalms.
So I just got an email from Analogue where he essentially wishes to speed up the process of opensourcing, and I'm a bit surprised that he started rolling on the project even though we haven't actually agreed on anything, let alone opensourcing the 2.0 code I haven't even finished yet.
I opted to pull the discussion back into public because I think it's fairly important for the community to at least have an idea of what's going on, regardless whether they get to see the code or not.
I'm not against opensource categorically, but I do believe that at this stage, the type of work to be done is so specific that having to deal with pull requests would be actually slowing it down. While the base is solid, there's a lot of things that are still in their infancy and I think most of it will only start to shape up once the site is rolling. Another issue that's never being addressed is the broken database, which I've been working on a fix for but everyone seems to underestimate the importance of.
So I'll say this here the same way I said it in the email to Analogue: All I ask is the time until I finish 2.0 - and yes I know it's been 5 years, and yes Pouet 2.0 is vaporware, and yes I know I've done all these unrelated projects in the meantime, and yes I should be sentenced to a lifetime of running in a forest of cocks with my mouth open, but just let me will deliver 2.0, let's wait a month or two for the waves to straighten, and after that we can pull out this discussion again and see where it goes from there.
I opted to pull the discussion back into public because I think it's fairly important for the community to at least have an idea of what's going on, regardless whether they get to see the code or not.
I'm not against opensource categorically, but I do believe that at this stage, the type of work to be done is so specific that having to deal with pull requests would be actually slowing it down. While the base is solid, there's a lot of things that are still in their infancy and I think most of it will only start to shape up once the site is rolling. Another issue that's never being addressed is the broken database, which I've been working on a fix for but everyone seems to underestimate the importance of.
So I'll say this here the same way I said it in the email to Analogue: All I ask is the time until I finish 2.0 - and yes I know it's been 5 years, and yes Pouet 2.0 is vaporware, and yes I know I've done all these unrelated projects in the meantime, and yes I should be sentenced to a lifetime of running in a forest of cocks with my mouth open, but just let me will deliver 2.0, let's wait a month or two for the waves to straighten, and after that we can pull out this discussion again and see where it goes from there.
Gargaj, we are not gonna delay the OSS of 0.x because of something that's not even released yet.
You don't want to show your code, fine, let's go on with what's on pouet.net now, and whenever you feel what you work on is ready to be open source, we might switch.
You don't want to show your code, fine, let's go on with what's on pouet.net now, and whenever you feel what you work on is ready to be open source, we might switch.
Who's that we again? As far as I've learned today you've been gone for years, some people said it's more that eight years. I read on your website that "In my spare time, I'm the webmaster of Pouet.net,[..]", I see Tomoya and Gargaj doing daily work with fixing bugs, fixing prods and so on. What's you're share in this, curiously interested.
Other than that, I get the gist that you want Gargaj to open source his code, and if not he's the mean guy - what the actual fuck? Why the heck should we do any fixes on the 0.x code? So we can have two branches like the cool guys?
Oh, and open sourcing a project and hoping the bug fairies will fix all the things might work with something like Ubuntu, but won't happen for Pouet. Though I'm the first to clap when it actually works..
Just my 2 € cents.
Other than that, I get the gist that you want Gargaj to open source his code, and if not he's the mean guy - what the actual fuck? Why the heck should we do any fixes on the 0.x code? So we can have two branches like the cool guys?
Oh, and open sourcing a project and hoping the bug fairies will fix all the things might work with something like Ubuntu, but won't happen for Pouet. Though I'm the first to clap when it actually works..
Just my 2 € cents.
with accepting patches for the current codebase you just work around its uglyness while at the same time cementing it because even more work has been done on top of it that would be useless once pouetv2 goes live (which in turn gets even more unlikely).
also im quite sure that doesnt really go well with gargajs approach so it would basically be a fork or different branch of pouet or every patch had to be done twice for pouet v1 and v2 (which only would work if it was open too, but probably not even then).
having that said id like an open source pouet, but not if the release of it actually throws it back. there are many open source projects out there that only exist to ease the mind of the former developer and are never touched again by anyone so i wouldnt jump to the conclusion making pouet open source will automagically attract a beehive of coders to fix it all up in no time. and if someone takes his time to add a certain feature or clear a certain bug it will surely help to motivate him to know that what he does hasnt already been done a long time ago sitting in the pouetv2 code.
the best solution in my eyes would be to wait until Gargaj considers pouet v2 done enough to open it to the public, then everybody who feels like it can use that as a basis for everything thereafter. this site did well since 2000, theres reason to believe it can stay in this state for a couple more weeks, so why the hurry all of a sudden?
apart of that if pouetv2 really turns out to be a second DNF or Gargaj wont open the source after all you can always agree on a (fair) deadline to release the existing code in any case.
also im quite sure that doesnt really go well with gargajs approach so it would basically be a fork or different branch of pouet or every patch had to be done twice for pouet v1 and v2 (which only would work if it was open too, but probably not even then).
having that said id like an open source pouet, but not if the release of it actually throws it back. there are many open source projects out there that only exist to ease the mind of the former developer and are never touched again by anyone so i wouldnt jump to the conclusion making pouet open source will automagically attract a beehive of coders to fix it all up in no time. and if someone takes his time to add a certain feature or clear a certain bug it will surely help to motivate him to know that what he does hasnt already been done a long time ago sitting in the pouetv2 code.
the best solution in my eyes would be to wait until Gargaj considers pouet v2 done enough to open it to the public, then everybody who feels like it can use that as a basis for everything thereafter. this site did well since 2000, theres reason to believe it can stay in this state for a couple more weeks, so why the hurry all of a sudden?
apart of that if pouetv2 really turns out to be a second DNF or Gargaj wont open the source after all you can always agree on a (fair) deadline to release the existing code in any case.
i don't see any point at all in open-sourcing the code, be it 0.9 or 2.0. what would be the use? that hundred coders and wannabe-coders give their clever remarks on how make things better? "viele köche verderben den brei" ("too many cooks spoil the porridge"), as the german saying goes. i have full trust in gargaj and tomoya to deliver a proper 2.0.
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You could include a nude picture of yourself...
Did Adok just out himself?
I'd love to upvote what dipswitch said :)
The future of Pouet is great.
I'm sure that many good things will come.
I'm sure that many good things will come.
I like better to wait for v2.0, no matter it takes time! All you need. It's pouet!!
fuck yeah!
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All I ask is the time until I finish 2.0
fuck yeah!
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About the shitty code, we surely know it is, but understand that pouet has been written starting in 99, with php3, no ORM, no framework
I'm sure that copypasta and bad DB layouts were being frowned upon already back then.
I'd like to thank mog and dipswitch for so exactly summing up my thoughts on the subject without me having to go down the "he's just defending his groupmate" road.
Guys smoke some...
If you don't wan't to contribute, don't give a shit about the source code and about this thread.
But at least if you want, you'll be able to.
And by "you" I also mean "me".
Right now it's just overwriting someone else's files on a server. Every X months and I want to fix something, I spend too much time into knowing who's doing what and where, and figuring out how to not overwrite other's job.
Makes sense to have a dev environment for us to contribute without overwriting anybody else's code, while working on stuff that take more than 1h.
Also makes sense to be able to work on features by more than 1 people.
v2 has nothing to do with v1, if a bug is fixed in v1, it will certainly not impact v2, and if it is, well thx for the one who will have detected and fixed it.
The end goal being to keep pouet.net to the scene, not owned by anyone, and that means a codebase that anybody can work on or fork, and an API that anybody can use.
Deal with it.
If you don't wan't to contribute, don't give a shit about the source code and about this thread.
But at least if you want, you'll be able to.
And by "you" I also mean "me".
Right now it's just overwriting someone else's files on a server. Every X months and I want to fix something, I spend too much time into knowing who's doing what and where, and figuring out how to not overwrite other's job.
Makes sense to have a dev environment for us to contribute without overwriting anybody else's code, while working on stuff that take more than 1h.
Also makes sense to be able to work on features by more than 1 people.
v2 has nothing to do with v1, if a bug is fixed in v1, it will certainly not impact v2, and if it is, well thx for the one who will have detected and fixed it.
The end goal being to keep pouet.net to the scene, not owned by anyone, and that means a codebase that anybody can work on or fork, and an API that anybody can use.
Deal with it.
As a sum up of the TODO:
- Actual code will go on github, along with the source of a REST API
- v2 code worked on by (and "owned" by) Gargaj will stay the same and won't be impacted until Gargaj feel like it's ready
That's it ! No need to hate.
Just wanted to let you know at the 1st place, maybe I'll just shut up next time =)
- Actual code will go on github, along with the source of a REST API
- v2 code worked on by (and "owned" by) Gargaj will stay the same and won't be impacted until Gargaj feel like it's ready
That's it ! No need to hate.
Just wanted to let you know at the 1st place, maybe I'll just shut up next time =)
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I'm sure that copypasta and bad DB layouts were being frowned upon already back then.
Certainly, I did mistakes that people afterward did not have the courage to fix. We all been noobs right ?
At least, you'll be able to fix those when the code is open.
Umm, I think you've been too long away from the scene. This is the future now and we have successfully abandoned elitism. That "deal with it"-attitude and the "no need to hate" remark feels kinda contradictory if you ask me.
Opensourcing the top10 would be a good start about elitism.
What's up with the conspiracy members...
I'm old deal with it, no need to hate !
I'm old deal with it, no need to hate !
"If you don't wan't to contribute" -- i can't code, but i think i can say without boasting that i've contributed to pouet.net content-wise like only a few others did during the past twelve (!) years, so i think i do have a right to worry about these matters. analogue, i really don't want to diminish your efforts - after all it was you who initiated and coded this amazing project (and i don't care about "website code errors" here). but really, is it that hard to coordinate efforts with gargaj and wait until he releases 2.0? i really fail to see what would be the point of open-sourcing 0.9 if substantial portions of the code will be obsolete as soon as 2.0 gets launched. ok, so people will spot errors in 0.9 and try to fix them - but what if they are already fixed in 2.0?
dipswitch: sure, tell gargaj to stop the 2.0, the 3.0 will be way better !
this is exactly the opposite of what i meant.
Hey dip,
Thx for your work btw.
I'm just scared about 2 things:
- 2.0 will never happen
- 2.0 happen and someone owns it
I have spare time again to focus on pouet (it happens once in a while, check the changelog) and I'm really scared to have to develop like in the 90's again.
Putting 0.x OSS out will just free pouet forever and give standard for the future: We'll be able to fix stuff, and 2.0 will have to be opened to replace 0.x.
If gargaj wants to open 2.0, I can make it happen faster, but I'm not spending time on any closed code.
Thx for your work btw.
I'm just scared about 2 things:
- 2.0 will never happen
- 2.0 happen and someone owns it
I have spare time again to focus on pouet (it happens once in a while, check the changelog) and I'm really scared to have to develop like in the 90's again.
Putting 0.x OSS out will just free pouet forever and give standard for the future: We'll be able to fix stuff, and 2.0 will have to be opened to replace 0.x.
If gargaj wants to open 2.0, I can make it happen faster, but I'm not spending time on any closed code.
if i understood gargaj correctly, he has no objections whatsoever to open-source 2.0 - he only asks to wait for it. and now that there's a preview online (and the pressure from this very thread), i have little doubt that it will be delivered.