The state of the demoscene: 1991 - 2011
category: general [glöplog]
dfox: not yet, anyway. Stay tuned for the Scene.org redesign ;)
we sit firmly in the "professional" camp with no apologies for it.
i know top demos can be intimidating to the newcomer but the ones making them have what, 15,20, even 25 years experience and in that time not only got good at making demos, but got pretty hot at coding/graphics/design/music in general to the point where they could become professionals, and become well known in their professions and outside the scene too. _of course_ a newcomer is going to find it tough to get anywhere near them. in the 90s perhaps that wasn't the case - 5 years was "a lot of experience" back then and quite few people worked in related fields (because they were largely teenagers).
which is why id like to reiterate my point of view - i personally dont see why you would target complete newcomers to coding/gfx/music as potential makers of demos of the future. you're asking them to learn a completely new thing that they might find incredibly difficult or not really have an interest in long term; get extremely good at it; have the necessary creative AND technical abilities; and keep hard at it for 5, 10 years until they can get somewhere near the level of the people who are around now (who are also always improving).
that is why i'd rather target people in related scenes/with related interests who are already experienced and good at what they do, and try and persuade them that demos can be a cool outlet for their work.
btw, can the people who keep saying "nobody cares about realtime anymore, thats why the scene is dying" just shut it and stop hammering that point, because it's completely factually inaccurate. more people care now than ever, and more people are using realtime graphics as a creative form than ever.
i know top demos can be intimidating to the newcomer but the ones making them have what, 15,20, even 25 years experience and in that time not only got good at making demos, but got pretty hot at coding/graphics/design/music in general to the point where they could become professionals, and become well known in their professions and outside the scene too. _of course_ a newcomer is going to find it tough to get anywhere near them. in the 90s perhaps that wasn't the case - 5 years was "a lot of experience" back then and quite few people worked in related fields (because they were largely teenagers).
which is why id like to reiterate my point of view - i personally dont see why you would target complete newcomers to coding/gfx/music as potential makers of demos of the future. you're asking them to learn a completely new thing that they might find incredibly difficult or not really have an interest in long term; get extremely good at it; have the necessary creative AND technical abilities; and keep hard at it for 5, 10 years until they can get somewhere near the level of the people who are around now (who are also always improving).
that is why i'd rather target people in related scenes/with related interests who are already experienced and good at what they do, and try and persuade them that demos can be a cool outlet for their work.
btw, can the people who keep saying "nobody cares about realtime anymore, thats why the scene is dying" just shut it and stop hammering that point, because it's completely factually inaccurate. more people care now than ever, and more people are using realtime graphics as a creative form than ever.
gloom: you keep saying that :) what about divulging a bit of information? - If something important like a scene.org redesign/reorientation takes place, a bit of (serious) community input can't hurt.
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that is why i'd rather target people in related scenes/with related interests who are already experienced and good at what they do, and try and persuade them that demos can be a cool outlet for their work.
That's been exactly my approach too. There are tons of people out there with the same skills as us and would love the scene if they were involved. Even people with say 25 years experience in their own field might find it a bit daunting to make their first demo though - unless, say, they join fairlight and start with an experienced team.
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Game, set, match.that is why i'd rather target people in related scenes/with related interests who are already experienced and good at what they do, and try and persuade them that demos can be a cool outlet for their work.
dfox: in this case, it can. "a camel is a horse designed by committee" and all that. :) We know fairly well what goals to hit for the redesign, and then the time comes to include new features, people will of course be allowed to chime in, but right now, it's a Scene.org project.
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it's not like the old days when you could code some raster bars and a scroller and throw a tune in. If you join a group though and concentrate on a few cool effects, it's easy and enjoyable to make that first step.
psonice: even coding rasterbars colors and scrollers in the old days was a challenge. one had to learn about the rastertime/screen-memory-address and/or charmode-addresses the things on your hardware. if a n00b started with an ancient hardware today, he would just scratch his head wondering how the fuck that works etc?. but there where good books you could get if you where really interested, and tutorials/code in magazines to learn a few things or two as well. and of course if you where that lucky that you allready knew someone who could teach you some coding.
i totally agree with smash.
for example i know someone who has a Ph.D in mathematics. i wonder what cool stuff he could come up with if he knew how to code. he asked me some day that he really wanted to know how to do it. the only thing he really knew a about was pseudo-code, which is a way for mathematicians to sometimes produce their results via coding.
rudi: if you "totally agree with smash", you should probably stop pasting that "manifesto" that totally disagrees with smash all over the place.
Today we have more resources and more easy to find on the internet. More people will see your work, more platforms/communities to discover your favorite place where you feel more creative.
However, more or less the same amount of asskicking is required to get yourself to work and reach at least the standards in demomaking in every time in history.
While most of the people to whom I have showed demos think that they are quite cool, only a very small percentage finally decided to take the effort to participate. One has to think "This is what I want to do in my life and I will dedicate part of my time to learn the skills required no matter what". One has to really like this or really by defined by this. I don't see whether making demomaking easier, trendier, more or less elite, more or less friendly will help much. But I am open to the possibilities.
However, more or less the same amount of asskicking is required to get yourself to work and reach at least the standards in demomaking in every time in history.
While most of the people to whom I have showed demos think that they are quite cool, only a very small percentage finally decided to take the effort to participate. One has to think "This is what I want to do in my life and I will dedicate part of my time to learn the skills required no matter what". One has to really like this or really by defined by this. I don't see whether making demomaking easier, trendier, more or less elite, more or less friendly will help much. But I am open to the possibilities.
rudi: back then poking around with hardware registers and such was what people did when they got bored of playing games. Most of the people I knew who had a computer back then tried a bit of coding, pushing a sprite around or writing a scroller. You started in basic, and it sucked so you learned some asm. It wasn't a big leap to making a demo, and we saw a ton of demos running before the games we were playing for inspiration :)
Now people are doing stuff with webgl, processing, game design tools etc. and they see vj sets, cool kinnect hacks and crazy video projection mapping on youtube for inspiration. Those people have the skills and the interest to make demos too.
Suggestion: Get your mathematician friend in front of a mac. Load the developer tools on it (Xcode, it's free on the app store) and fire up Quartz Composer. Let him figure out how it works a little (it's easy, similar to werkzeug) then give his a Core Image filter in it. It's a subset of glsl, and lets you write 2D effects that run on the GPU. Perfect for a beginner to learn the basics of shader effects, and it steps neatly into GLSL. If he can already do some pseudocode stuff he'll be doing 3d fractals in very little time :)
Now people are doing stuff with webgl, processing, game design tools etc. and they see vj sets, cool kinnect hacks and crazy video projection mapping on youtube for inspiration. Those people have the skills and the interest to make demos too.
Suggestion: Get your mathematician friend in front of a mac. Load the developer tools on it (Xcode, it's free on the app store) and fire up Quartz Composer. Let him figure out how it works a little (it's easy, similar to werkzeug) then give his a Core Image filter in it. It's a subset of glsl, and lets you write 2D effects that run on the GPU. Perfect for a beginner to learn the basics of shader effects, and it steps neatly into GLSL. If he can already do some pseudocode stuff he'll be doing 3d fractals in very little time :)
My 2 cents:
- demoscene (realtime, skills, prods, party, bigscreen, attitude, history, people...) is cool by essence, at least it appeals to some people (those who have a "demoscene soul")
- still, demoscene numbers are going down whereas computer/internet numbers are going up.
- How to "reach" the people who have a "demoscene soul" ? (youngster OR experienced people not yet involved) - because they are probably quite a lot of them out there
1/ (good) "2012" demos (caring about nowadays creative/technical challenges: GPU, HTML5, smartphone-hardware, kinect, ...)
2/ (good) "2012" parties (with a Facebook event page, newbie motivation, compos fitting 2012 creative/technical challenges, ...)
3/ (good) "2012" websites/blogs/portals (with twitter/facebook/API... displayhack/chrome xp...)
I think the demoscene as a whole just missed something at some moment, and is a bit "outdated" right now, but we can change that.
Let's make demos/parties/onlinestuff :)
- demoscene (realtime, skills, prods, party, bigscreen, attitude, history, people...) is cool by essence, at least it appeals to some people (those who have a "demoscene soul")
- still, demoscene numbers are going down whereas computer/internet numbers are going up.
- How to "reach" the people who have a "demoscene soul" ? (youngster OR experienced people not yet involved) - because they are probably quite a lot of them out there
1/ (good) "2012" demos (caring about nowadays creative/technical challenges: GPU, HTML5, smartphone-hardware, kinect, ...)
2/ (good) "2012" parties (with a Facebook event page, newbie motivation, compos fitting 2012 creative/technical challenges, ...)
3/ (good) "2012" websites/blogs/portals (with twitter/facebook/API... displayhack/chrome xp...)
I think the demoscene as a whole just missed something at some moment, and is a bit "outdated" right now, but we can change that.
Let's make demos/parties/onlinestuff :)
For some reason, re-designing scene.org from the ground up according to community input made me think of this:
Too bad I'm unable to swiftly adapt some movie dialog to fit this thread ;)
Too bad I'm unable to swiftly adapt some movie dialog to fit this thread ;)
..and please don't let the previous derail the serious discussion
Back to the discussion, I think that many demosceners agree that we should increase our "outreach" and "promote" the scene more and more.
But, seems that the reasons behind that decision could differ considerably.
Some people feel the urge to recruit new sceners before our beloved scene (dying since 1992) became extinct. Then those people talk about lack of tutorials and Demoscene for Dummies books.
Other people do not care about that apocalyptical scenario and just wanna do an "outreach" for the sake of the art, because it deserve to be know by the public.
I think that we should try to examine the issue from both points of view.
My opinion, if you ask me, is that we should promote the scene just because it is really interesting by itself.
I agree with Smash when he said:
Just think that 99% of the people that will learn about the demoscene (thanks to the efforts of our big outreach propaganda) will never make a demo (about it or whatever).
Psonice said:
Long are those glorious days when every computer owner was also a computer enthusiast! Today, every man and his dog has a computer and do not care a bag of beans about computer stuff.
Let's face it. In the 80's and during most of the 90's, to have a personal computer was a geeky thing.
Many people learned to code with C64s, Amstrad CPCs or Spectrums just because they were ready to do it.
But even in that golden era the majority used to learn just a few BASIC instructions... those needed to load games!
Nowadays everybody has computers (because of internet and games) and they don't wanna learn how to program.
Except the few creative people that are also interested in computer stuff... perhaps some of them would code demos if they learn about the existence of our scene (but they probably will code more games than demos).
I would like to drop a last line about compos in parties (not Revision or another "scene only" party but general computer parties)...
Of course, party organizers can change compo rules if they think that it would increase participation and surely that will increase the number of party releases (of mp3s/videos/games), but not the number of demoscene prods. :)
But, seems that the reasons behind that decision could differ considerably.
Some people feel the urge to recruit new sceners before our beloved scene (dying since 1992) became extinct. Then those people talk about lack of tutorials and Demoscene for Dummies books.
Other people do not care about that apocalyptical scenario and just wanna do an "outreach" for the sake of the art, because it deserve to be know by the public.
I think that we should try to examine the issue from both points of view.
My opinion, if you ask me, is that we should promote the scene just because it is really interesting by itself.
I agree with Smash when he said:
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... i personally dont see why you would target complete newcomers to coding/gfx/music as potential makers of demos of the future. you're asking them to learn a completely new thing that they might find incredibly difficult ...
Just think that 99% of the people that will learn about the demoscene (thanks to the efforts of our big outreach propaganda) will never make a demo (about it or whatever).
Psonice said:
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... back then poking around with hardware registers and such was what people did when they got bored of playing games. Most of the people I knew who had a computer back then tried a bit of coding, pushing a sprite around or writing a scroller. You started in basic, and it sucked so you learned some asm ...
Long are those glorious days when every computer owner was also a computer enthusiast! Today, every man and his dog has a computer and do not care a bag of beans about computer stuff.
Let's face it. In the 80's and during most of the 90's, to have a personal computer was a geeky thing.
Many people learned to code with C64s, Amstrad CPCs or Spectrums just because they were ready to do it.
But even in that golden era the majority used to learn just a few BASIC instructions... those needed to load games!
Nowadays everybody has computers (because of internet and games) and they don't wanna learn how to program.
Except the few creative people that are also interested in computer stuff... perhaps some of them would code demos if they learn about the existence of our scene (but they probably will code more games than demos).
I would like to drop a last line about compos in parties (not Revision or another "scene only" party but general computer parties)...
Of course, party organizers can change compo rules if they think that it would increase participation and surely that will increase the number of party releases (of mp3s/videos/games), but not the number of demoscene prods. :)
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which is why id like to reiterate my point of view - i personally dont see why you would target complete newcomers to coding/gfx/music as potential makers of demos of the future. you're asking them to learn a completely new thing that they might find incredibly difficult or not really have an interest in long term; get extremely good at it; have the necessary creative AND technical abilities; and keep hard at it for 5, 10 years until they can get somewhere near the level of the people who are around now (who are also always improving).
That's why we noobs down here started operation "GF for Scener" and "Child for Scener", so you guys find less time to even create a demo - giving us the opportunity to get the second last place.
mog: and finally "married with three kids for sceners" which gave us the ultimate goal: last place in the compo puts you in the top 3!
psonice: hehe. Next plan is to use a lot of #ff00ff, to blind sceners - or at least have them sitting in a corner crying. :3
For some seriousness, the whole outreach stuff sounds too much like a business operation to me. It's not too hard to find the scene, and if you want to make a prod there's plenty of help on IRC or even here.
One thing that some have to learn is that all of us started at a point, so stay friendly even if you dislike a prod - give critique that helps. I know this is hard for some..
For some seriousness, the whole outreach stuff sounds too much like a business operation to me. It's not too hard to find the scene, and if you want to make a prod there's plenty of help on IRC or even here.
One thing that some have to learn is that all of us started at a point, so stay friendly even if you dislike a prod - give critique that helps. I know this is hard for some..
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if you want to make a prod there's plenty of help on IRC
fail
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Quote:failif you want to make a prod there's plenty of help on IRC
Elaborate.
Say, I wonder if there'd be interest in some basic let's make a demo tutorial series.. =)
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Say, I wonder if there'd be interest in some basic let's make a demo tutorial series..
i don't think you've been paying attention. it has already been stated that noobs are undesirable. Outreach is about attracting professional people to our scene, people with at least 20 years coding experience and a Phd in mathematics. After all, that's the only way the scene will gain respect from the "outside world" and generate interest from companies and corporate affiliated organizations such as NVidia and SIGRAPH.
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For some seriousness, the whole outreach stuff sounds too much like a business operation to me.
and? the scene isn't a place to create purly for the enjoyment of creating. we've got to get rid of such ideas. that BS doesn't fly in today's high powered demoscene business world!
I think there's a great difference of opinion between people who organize demoparties, people who are productive, the "consumers" and the trolls.
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and? the scene isn't a place to create purly for the enjoyment of creating. we've got to get rid of such ideas. that BS doesn't fly in today's high powered demoscene business world!
lol :D
D.Fox++
Pouet feature request: ability to selectively filter thread contents acoording to D.Fox' grouping of people. E.g. "Show only only newbies and trolls."
Pouet feature request: ability to selectively filter thread contents acoording to D.Fox' grouping of people. E.g. "Show only only newbies and trolls."
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I think there's a great difference of opinion between people who organize demoparties, people who are productive, the "consumers" and the trolls.
organizers: "we want as much people to come to our parties as possible"
productive/creative persons: "we want more competition and skilled sceners"
consumers: "we dont care as long as the booze is cheap and the flamewars on pouet are on!"
trolls: "fuck you, i quit"
