The state of the demoscene: 1991 - 2011
category: general [glöplog]
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Is the air thin up where your soap-box is? Because what you're "saying" isn't what's being discussed at all. Feel free to continue your "CHANGE IS DANGEROUS! DON'T ADAPT! WOULD RATHER DIE THAN... etc.i'm not the one setting up a vs. competition between "us" and "them". i'm quite happy to let them enjoy their shit while i enjoy my own. that way "we" don't have to bend over backward thinking of ways to make manipulate "our" demoscene creations to be more palatable to "their" tastes and, in the process of doing so, only end-up transforming the scene into an inferior carbon copy of "their" shit which "they" STILL would not appreciate fully anyway and would just point "their" finger at "us" in mockery and disdain because "we" do not live up to "their" SHIT standards.
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Clearly.i don't see why their is such an effort to please "outsiders". i do not see what point "outreach" has.
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Since I don't like repeating myself to people who clearly have no interest in actually accepting the state of things, I'll just refer you to the previous 15 pages of this thread which you've clearly just skipped in order to keep shouting "CHANGE IS DANGEROUS!" at the end.because, in this age of easily accessible information and the net, anyone with the slightest interest in the scene will follow the bread crumbs of their instinctive desires and find "us" anyway.
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..and then?I'm sure 100s of thousands have already done so, found the wikipedia demo scene info page, discovered the multitude of demos on YouTube, even tripped over Pouet and lol'd and immediately clicked into the more suitable domains/communities of trendyMediaFlashProds.com and boringPrerendered3DanimationTips.com.
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That's not what's being discussed -- also, what the demoscene can and cannot be isn't set in stone, and it's sad if you actually believe so.no one finds our shit interesting. just live with it and quit trying to trendyfy it into something it cannot be.
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Well, you are free to believe whatever you'd like, but clearly the actual evidence points the other way. This discussion is about what we'd like to do to change that.But any charts will make thing that the scene is dying, the way we "produce" things has changed, less prods, more quality, but I don't think the scene is dying.
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Did you use to count those as sceners before? Because I sure didn't. It's not less gamers that's the cause of decline in demoscene activity, it's the decline in active sceners.Yes, there's a lot less lamers, less gamers, less kiddies watching pr0n at demoparties, and I am le very happy of that.
this is useless, once anybody brought a manifesto, you're sure the scene is dying :)
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its not popular like Rap music currently is and you should be glad because most things which the majority find attractive is pure SHIT.
Well, since you are clearly wrong about everything (rap is the best music, jsyk) I'm going to disregard everything you say.
A demoscene manifesto would be hilarious though :D
ahahhaa. i just saw this :D
Read it in Henry Rollin's voice for better effect!
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DEMOSCENER'S MANIFESTO
i'm not the one setting up a vs. competition between "us" and "them".
i'm quite happy to let them enjoy their shit while i enjoy my own.
that way "we" don't have to bend over backward thinking of ways to make
manipulate "our" demoscene creations to be more palatable to "their" tastes
and, in the process of doing so, only end-up transforming the scene into an
inferior carbon copy of "their" shit which "they" STILL would not appreciate
fully anyway and would just point "their" finger at "us" in mockery and
disdain because "we" do not live up to "their" SHIT standards.
i don't see why their is such an effort to please "outsiders".
i do not see what point "outreach" has. because, in this age of easily accessible
information and the net, anyone with the slightest interest in the scene will
follow the bread crumbs of their instinctive desires and find "us" anyway.
I'm sure 100s of thousands have already done so, found the wikipedia demo scene
info page, discovered the multitude of demos on YouTube, even tripped over Pouet
and lol'd and immediately clicked into the more suitable domains/communities of
trendyMediaFlashProds.com and boringPrerendered3DanimationTips.com .
no one finds our shit interesting. just live with it and quit trying to trendyfy
it into something it cannot be.
- button
Read it in Henry Rollin's voice for better effect!
lol, how apt :D
best way to outreach is to upload a video on youtube, like everyone else in every other medium.
note: manifestos are generally followed by bombings or shooting sprees.
dear gloom, everybody said to me that you are a very nice guy IRL, and since I know you are doing tons of stuff for the demoscene I respect you, but I have to say that you sound totally arrogant on this topic :(
you are still delivering page after page you way of thinking to everyone participating, i think half (or more) of sceners doesn't share you vision of the demoscene and his future, some of them pointed you some enormous errors in your article but you didn't change a word...
of course, i want to see the demoscene to elvolve in the right direction, of course i don't want the demoscene die.
But I am also very sure that I don't want the demoscene becoming a new ersatz of random Vimeo-like-prerendered-3d-showreel :(
I think it will be my last message here, since it's impossible to share something here and only one person already knows for everyone else what is good or not for the demoscene.
you are still delivering page after page you way of thinking to everyone participating, i think half (or more) of sceners doesn't share you vision of the demoscene and his future, some of them pointed you some enormous errors in your article but you didn't change a word...
of course, i want to see the demoscene to elvolve in the right direction, of course i don't want the demoscene die.
But I am also very sure that I don't want the demoscene becoming a new ersatz of random Vimeo-like-prerendered-3d-showreel :(
I think it will be my last message here, since it's impossible to share something here and only one person already knows for everyone else what is good or not for the demoscene.
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you are still delivering page after page you way of thinking to everyone participating
In his defense, he's not the only one :)
Who needs a scene version 2.0 anyway? :)
Nice article!
rez: feel free to:
- tell me exactly how I'm acting arrogant on this subject
- point out the enormous errors in my article, specifically what I didn't change
- point to where I state that I want a random Vimeo-like-prerendered-3d-showreel
- tell me where I'm, apparently, showing my opinions down the throat of others
Please, go ahead -- I'll wait.
(scroll down a bit when you're done)
Finished? Ok, great - let me address those four things then:
- "Arrogant"? I wrote the article, I know the facts in it, which makes me sort of an authority on referring to them. The findings are the findings, and I've invited EVERYONE to discuss and share the content. Just because you don't personally agree with some of what's being _discussed_ as a result of it.. well, sorry, but tough shit. :) Just as I don't agree that making retro-glorifying-cracktro-like-stuff is going to bring the scene forward, you are completely free to agree that, for example, embracing the web as a new platform isn't going to do that. We're both entitled to those opinions, and while none of them might be the absolute truth, the fact that I've chosen my opinion and keep sticking to it doesn't make me arrogant, it makes me consistent.
- "Enormous errors" + "no corrections"? Wrong. As far as I've been told (and I've recieved TONS of feedback on the article) there aren't any huge factual errors in the article. For the typos and correction-suggestions, I've followed every single one of them. There have been some feedback on some of the _opinions_, which have also been adjusted or reformatted. Feel free to use some sort of web archive lookback mechanism to look at the different revisions of the article. According to my own notes, it's been updated _29 times_ since it was first published. So, you're wrong.. and you're also being ignorant and arrogant about it. Consider that for a moment.
- "Vimeo"? You're going to have to help me out here, because I have no idea of what you're talking about. If saying that "the demoscene needs to design stuff better" is interpreted by you as "instituting a nazi regime of only production quality motion graphics showreels in the scene", then the problem lies with you, not me, because that's not at all what's being said (by a whole lot of people, not just me btw, but hey -- I'm all for shooting the messenger).
- "DO AS I SAY"? Again: where? I have my set of _opinions_ which I'm being consistent about. If you don't like those opinions, you're free to discuss with me about them, raise other opinions and just downright tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not wasting my time (more than already has been wasted by writing this post, that is) by "defending" me or anyone else saying that "Hey, maybe we should update ourselves a little? Who's in?".
To sum it up: discussing what people think about the current state of the scene and what can be done to prevent it from dying is hardly unconstructive or meaningless. Sticking your hand in the sand shouting "LALAL LALALALALALA!" however... is exactly that.
(..and despite what you might think, I'm a good and nice person -- come to Solskogen this summer and we'll have a beer or nineteen :)
- tell me exactly how I'm acting arrogant on this subject
- point out the enormous errors in my article, specifically what I didn't change
- point to where I state that I want a random Vimeo-like-prerendered-3d-showreel
- tell me where I'm, apparently, showing my opinions down the throat of others
Please, go ahead -- I'll wait.
(scroll down a bit when you're done)
Finished? Ok, great - let me address those four things then:
- "Arrogant"? I wrote the article, I know the facts in it, which makes me sort of an authority on referring to them. The findings are the findings, and I've invited EVERYONE to discuss and share the content. Just because you don't personally agree with some of what's being _discussed_ as a result of it.. well, sorry, but tough shit. :) Just as I don't agree that making retro-glorifying-cracktro-like-stuff is going to bring the scene forward, you are completely free to agree that, for example, embracing the web as a new platform isn't going to do that. We're both entitled to those opinions, and while none of them might be the absolute truth, the fact that I've chosen my opinion and keep sticking to it doesn't make me arrogant, it makes me consistent.
- "Enormous errors" + "no corrections"? Wrong. As far as I've been told (and I've recieved TONS of feedback on the article) there aren't any huge factual errors in the article. For the typos and correction-suggestions, I've followed every single one of them. There have been some feedback on some of the _opinions_, which have also been adjusted or reformatted. Feel free to use some sort of web archive lookback mechanism to look at the different revisions of the article. According to my own notes, it's been updated _29 times_ since it was first published. So, you're wrong.. and you're also being ignorant and arrogant about it. Consider that for a moment.
- "Vimeo"? You're going to have to help me out here, because I have no idea of what you're talking about. If saying that "the demoscene needs to design stuff better" is interpreted by you as "instituting a nazi regime of only production quality motion graphics showreels in the scene", then the problem lies with you, not me, because that's not at all what's being said (by a whole lot of people, not just me btw, but hey -- I'm all for shooting the messenger).
- "DO AS I SAY"? Again: where? I have my set of _opinions_ which I'm being consistent about. If you don't like those opinions, you're free to discuss with me about them, raise other opinions and just downright tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not wasting my time (more than already has been wasted by writing this post, that is) by "defending" me or anyone else saying that "Hey, maybe we should update ourselves a little? Who's in?".
To sum it up: discussing what people think about the current state of the scene and what can be done to prevent it from dying is hardly unconstructive or meaningless. Sticking your hand in the sand shouting "LALAL LALALALALALA!" however... is exactly that.
(..and despite what you might think, I'm a good and nice person -- come to Solskogen this summer and we'll have a beer or nineteen :)
how about instituting a demoscene tax at every party! then, we spend the tax on commercials for joining the demoscene :)?
as a metaphor i'll print the manifesto on a t-shirt and walk with it for the rest of my life.
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- "Arrogant"? I wrote the article, I know the facts in it, which makes me sort of an authority on referring to them. The findings are the findings, and I've invited EVERYONE to discuss and share the content.
content (especially statistics) without context is misleading at best and down-right decitful most of the time. the problem is, you are pointing your judgmental finger at the scene. you call it "old" and "stagnated", yet you know only too well that a large portion of demos (from groups like MFX, Fairlight and ASD) are forward looking examples which demonstrate the best virtues of the scene and contain not only technically impressive solutions to very creative "design problems" but also hold their own as far as design is concerned. it may not be the type of "design" appretiated by mainstream AfterEffect designers working on multimillion dollar budget film and game titles but they are examples of modern progressive demo design.
i think many of us are confussed, because we know that the scene has changed and evolved in a positive direction over the past 20 years - yet you are telling us that it hasn't and that it is failing simply because numbers are low and people today are no longer attracted to the fundamental demo development process.
well, here's the context that your article so badly needed: today's trendy CG designers no longer need the hassle and hardwork involved in programming realtime graphics engines in order to realize their "design ideas". during the early 80s, and 90s this wasn't the case. It was necessary to program in realtime. not today. So today, those who are more focused on design and could (potentially) contribute to raising the bar (as far as trendy attractive mainstream designs are concerned) are all using Flash, AfterEffect, Premier and Maya to realize their designs. They are not interested in using custom "low level" toolsets consisting of C++/OpenGL and some "difficult" tool such as GNU Rocket to syncronize the narrative of their designs.
but here's the catch-22: an essential factor of demos is the art of real-time code (along with the audio and graphic design). you do not have a demo if it is not realtime. and in addition, producing a "demo" with 3rd party commercial tools is the demo framework equivelant of scanning someone elses art and using it in your production. Flash productions on Pouet are thumbed down and not considered "proper" demos for good reason. This is not an "old" outdated view from the scene because it preserves the triangle which is the essence of a complete demo: 1. Custom code/framework, 2. visual graphics and 3. audio.
There is only one solution as far as I see, demo coders must begin creating more tools for designers, yet the designers have to at least appretiate that the tools may not offer all the convinences of the 3rd party commercial tools they're familiar with from their modern "digital media creation" courses (Flash, Adobe, whatever). Demoscene designers always need technical proficiency as well as design skills. that's just one of the unavoidable because even the best demo design tools require jumping through some technical hurdles which the designer must appretiate.
i'm guessing this is the cause of the decline, along with the explosion of online communities in recent years. and you cannot really change this without compromising many of the defining characteristics of the scene.in other words gloom: NO "WE" WILL NOT ALLOW VIMEO PRERENDERED AFTEREFFECTS ANIMATIONS ON OUR SCENE, JUST TO ATTRACT LAZY NOOBS WHO ARE SCARED OF THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE SCENE. :P
wow
behold my wall of rant!
behold my wall of rant!
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Flash productions on Pouet are thumbed down and not considered "proper" demos for good reason.
who the hell are you
there are enough things to be upset about in the world other than obstinate hysterical alarmists and defeatists on this thread going about why outreach is a waste of time, scene cannot change, etc.
It makes me unhappy to see people I respect (most recently Gargaj and Gloom) wasting their energy and possibly upsetness on this.
I hope this stops.
It makes me unhappy to see people I respect (most recently Gargaj and Gloom) wasting their energy and possibly upsetness on this.
I hope this stops.
yes, http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=56106 received a lot of flak, was thumbed down and everyone hated it, it wasnt considered a demo etc. Maybe people perceived it differently because it werent an amiga boingball made in 3dsmax - it actually had some effort involved. You would never get cheered for a rotating torus on pc, but on a c64, shit might be different.
... my wellmade point will never take root, since i forgot to use BB-code :(
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It makes me unhappy to see people I respect (most recently Gargaj and Gloom) wasting their energy and possibly upsetness on this.
if i didn't see Gargaj's preceding post, I would have lol'd at that.
if you can't take people's opinions, do not initiate debate.