ZINE - The Radio Show
category: general [glöplog]
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if you are trying to reach as many people as possible, you are aiming for the mainstream aka hip&trendy aka the big audience aka otto normalverbraucher aka starbucks clientele.
Wow, I hope you don't work in marketing or PR, because that statement is just rubbish. Hip&trendy is by definition NOT mainstream.
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yeah, i'm sorry, monroe's comment was extremely contructive now that i re-read it. i wonder how on earth i missed all those useful hints and tips he is giving the first time round.
Really? Sarcasm? Oh well.
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also, i wonder how it ever got into my head to assume that 4 years of university and almost a decade in the field would lead me to any insights regarding graphics design whatsoever. tomorrow i will tell my boss he should fire me, so i can more properly concentrate on lowering my shoulders to higher beings.
Wait, so - you _did_ do the graphic design for the page, or you didn't? If you did; yeah you should. You might be one of the many that think that general print designs also work on the web, which they (usually) don't.
This "discussion" is heading nowhere, so I bid you goodnight.
how about less quarrel about outreach (and less outreach, while we are at it)? and more fun and healthy arrogance? if getting into the scene would have been that easy back then, i would not have wanted to join. noone invited me ...
i agree, outreach for something like the demoscene is a stupid idea. and im not even explaining "why" - it just is. itll never work. its like attempting outreach for the phenomenon of "stamp collecting".
the demoscene is already "out there", all it takes is for anyone with the slightest genuine interest to search a few keywords and the concept of a "demo" will reveal itself in no time.
besides, hasnt all this outreach malarkey been attempted before http://pouet.net/topic.php?which=120
the demoscene is already "out there", all it takes is for anyone with the slightest genuine interest to search a few keywords and the concept of a "demo" will reveal itself in no time.
besides, hasnt all this outreach malarkey been attempted before http://pouet.net/topic.php?which=120
ok, its not stupid, but its a futile waste of energy trying to get gamerlamers, or trendy digital artsy types interested. im pretty certain of that.
oh, ah, and thumb-up for the radio show btw. great stuff.
i cannot comment specifically on other efforts, i can only say that i know for a fact by first hand experience that "outreach" can work in individual cases. i'm surprised about dipswitch' disbelief since i've seen him drink beer with and applaud to prods made by some of these people, but i wouldn't really blame him for it because these people are really almost as ugly as real sceners. (cough ;))
i don't know, i never tried. more technologically oriented environments do yield some results, but i guess it is safe to assume the hit ratio will be lower among the groups you mention. whether that's low enough to warrant the term "futile" remains speculation until someone tries it and reports back :)
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its a futile waste of energy trying to get gamerlamers, or trendy digital artsy types interested
i don't know, i never tried. more technologically oriented environments do yield some results, but i guess it is safe to assume the hit ratio will be lower among the groups you mention. whether that's low enough to warrant the term "futile" remains speculation until someone tries it and reports back :)
when are you two starting demoscene.am? (or .fm?) :D
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how about less quarrel about outreach (and less outreach, while we are at it)? and more fun and healthy arrogance? if getting into the scene would have been that easy back then, i would not have wanted to join. noone invited me ...
dip is always speaking like "yea live in peace and tolerate" and now arrogance :D
havoc: Dip is genetically against anything that brings new people into "his" hobby. :)
Well, you're wrong. Outreach is a non-futile waste of time (because it does take a lot of time :) to get ANYONE interested in the demoscene, more than they normally would have been without any effort, and it does work. Hell, "outreach" (in it's purest and most personal sense) is how the scene has grown from it's infancy; one person showing/telling someone else about it, and from there to where we are today.
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ok, its not stupid, but its a futile waste of energy trying to get gamerlamers, or trendy digital artsy types interested. im pretty certain of that.
Well, you're wrong. Outreach is a non-futile waste of time (because it does take a lot of time :) to get ANYONE interested in the demoscene, more than they normally would have been without any effort, and it does work. Hell, "outreach" (in it's purest and most personal sense) is how the scene has grown from it's infancy; one person showing/telling someone else about it, and from there to where we are today.
i just wanted to remind you all with one word ... legalize :D
I just find it kind of interesting, how all the outreach people don't look left and right, to see what other people have done years ago* and spend their time reinventing the wheel over and over again.
As for the point(lessness) of outreach in general: As rephaim pointed out, people genuinely interested in realtime graphics programming, find the scene pretty easily. All the information is already out there. The point of outreach (at siggraph or the tidal wave of demoscene articles in German online media every time a new bp or evoke or tum starts) is imho mainly to create a level of awareness, get in contact with the big guys (pixar et al.) and assure intel, nvidia and amd that their sponsoring euros are well spend.
(* yes, I know, old and "slightly" outdated, but still...)
As for the point(lessness) of outreach in general: As rephaim pointed out, people genuinely interested in realtime graphics programming, find the scene pretty easily. All the information is already out there. The point of outreach (at siggraph or the tidal wave of demoscene articles in German online media every time a new bp or evoke or tum starts) is imho mainly to create a level of awareness, get in contact with the big guys (pixar et al.) and assure intel, nvidia and amd that their sponsoring euros are well spend.
(* yes, I know, old and "slightly" outdated, but still...)
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I just find it kind of interesting, how all the outreach people don't look left and right, to see what other people have done years ago* and spend their time reinventing the wheel over and over again.
Who's reinventing the wheel? Just because there is a FAQ (or fifteen) out there doesn't mean a more active approach isn't needed.
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The point of outreach (at siggraph or the tidal wave of demoscene articles in German online media every time a new bp or evoke or tum starts) is imho mainly to create a level of awareness, get in contact with the big guys (pixar et al.) and assure intel, nvidia and amd that their sponsoring euros are well spend.
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.
Of course it is to create a level of awareness, because it is always easier to talk about something when the other person has a vague idea about what it is. That makes them more likely to hear you out.
gloom, no, not exactly, perhaps i just want that those people have a similar hard time as i had when i joined. :)
anyway, seriously, i appreciate many of the outreach efforts.
anyway, seriously, i appreciate many of the outreach efforts.
I'm gonna be a devil's advocate, but I want to throw this in. Aren't we doing all this 'outreaching' because in our hearts we know that the scene is gradually getting older, smaller and less 'ahead of the game'?
Fair enough, people are coming back, which is awesome, but still it's quite clear that our hobby will eventually get 'extinct'. I'm still not sure if this is a bad thing or not. I joined the scene in 1994 when it was probably at it's highest time and it was awesome! But through the years we saw certain elements slowly render the scene, harshly said, unnecessary.
The internet provided platforms for creative people to express themselves. Through websites like DeviantArt, Youtube, MySpace, Vimeo, NewGrounds and many more, people found a way to distribute and discuss certain aspects of art. Where these people probably would have found the demoscene back in the late eighties and early nineties.
I myself encourage things like machineama, flash movies and all other things, because for me, it's all about expression. But with expression comes evolution and some forms will eventually be less practiced. There are still many traditional watercolor painters, but not as many as 200 years ago.
This is also why I'm still weary about a lot of these 'outreach' things. What is there to gain? Some new blood, surely. And, admittedly, companies that will fund our parties. But what else? Must we make so many people aware of us? I always used to like the complete 'underground' subculture that silently made his mark instead of vocally using advertising.
Maybe some of you might find me short-sighted or having a wrong impression of our precious scene. But to me it has always been and will always stay a kick-ass, super-creative hobby where one can do whatever they want to digitally express themselves. Hang out with like-minded individuals and share ideas and concepts and cheer or boo during competitions that in heart always stayed friendly.
Fair enough, people are coming back, which is awesome, but still it's quite clear that our hobby will eventually get 'extinct'. I'm still not sure if this is a bad thing or not. I joined the scene in 1994 when it was probably at it's highest time and it was awesome! But through the years we saw certain elements slowly render the scene, harshly said, unnecessary.
The internet provided platforms for creative people to express themselves. Through websites like DeviantArt, Youtube, MySpace, Vimeo, NewGrounds and many more, people found a way to distribute and discuss certain aspects of art. Where these people probably would have found the demoscene back in the late eighties and early nineties.
I myself encourage things like machineama, flash movies and all other things, because for me, it's all about expression. But with expression comes evolution and some forms will eventually be less practiced. There are still many traditional watercolor painters, but not as many as 200 years ago.
This is also why I'm still weary about a lot of these 'outreach' things. What is there to gain? Some new blood, surely. And, admittedly, companies that will fund our parties. But what else? Must we make so many people aware of us? I always used to like the complete 'underground' subculture that silently made his mark instead of vocally using advertising.
Maybe some of you might find me short-sighted or having a wrong impression of our precious scene. But to me it has always been and will always stay a kick-ass, super-creative hobby where one can do whatever they want to digitally express themselves. Hang out with like-minded individuals and share ideas and concepts and cheer or boo during competitions that in heart always stayed friendly.
(i havent read the whole thread, but some of the comments made me think of a few things regarding all this.)
Dipswitch: I used to think that newcomers to the Scene should have an equally hard time as I had when I learned assembly coding from a danish book with 1000 typos in it.
and Okkie: the subculture aspect of the Scene is what makes it special for me too.
But, both of you speak like old men :) You protect what you held precious in your teens and, as much as I understand what you are saying, it's simply futile. The only thing certain is that things change and moaning about stuff helps nobody. Basically, one solution to all this fear could be found at the core of the Scene: if latte-drinking newcomers should invade the Scene with their nonsense, just kill'em all in the compos: Respect tought by the tip of the sword. This way of thinking give me peace of mind.
Dipswitch: I used to think that newcomers to the Scene should have an equally hard time as I had when I learned assembly coding from a danish book with 1000 typos in it.
and Okkie: the subculture aspect of the Scene is what makes it special for me too.
But, both of you speak like old men :) You protect what you held precious in your teens and, as much as I understand what you are saying, it's simply futile. The only thing certain is that things change and moaning about stuff helps nobody. Basically, one solution to all this fear could be found at the core of the Scene: if latte-drinking newcomers should invade the Scene with their nonsense, just kill'em all in the compos: Respect tought by the tip of the sword. This way of thinking give me peace of mind.
Okkie: I agree with most of your points actually. :) The thing is that the demoscene in itself is so obscure by definition that there is no real "danger" of destroying the subculture by too many fresh faces. Only those who "get it" will get involved, and in order to play that percentages game, you have to start with a bit "Yo! Over here!" to a lot of people, which are then filtered down to many fewer people still interested after the initial infatuation, which are then again filtered down to a few people still standing and actually participating and contributing to the scene.
I also don't think of the demoscene as art, not really. Sure, there is talent, and lately a few demos have shown that there are indeed artistic aspirations and interests here, but demos aren't art. They are demos. :) This again makes it hard for me to compare it to other artforms that have struggled over the years, like waterpainting.
The thing is; even though A LOT of people are doing stuff in Processing or After Effects that might look like demos, and uploading them to YouTube or Vimeo, it really doesn't matter to me, because while it is cool that people are doing visuals and motion graphics, they aren't demos. Only demos have that special combination of skills and self expression (through code AND through graphics AND through animation AND through music at the same time) so for me these other things don't come close.. even though they may look better or have better direction.
So yes; new blood is what it is about really - and as you say; the scene seem to be slowly loosing active members, which have created a new need as well: the need for some small financial support to keep our demo parties running, even though there seem to be less people involved these days. Self-preservation, if you will.
I forgot where this rant was going.. Oh, yes.. :) "Rendering the scene unnecessary" - probably, for some. For those who haven't heard about it or started in it, it might seem redundant, which makes it all the more important that we try our best to make the demoscene one of the first contacts that people have with realtime graphics and expression to code and collaboration. At least, that's my goal. :)
I also don't think of the demoscene as art, not really. Sure, there is talent, and lately a few demos have shown that there are indeed artistic aspirations and interests here, but demos aren't art. They are demos. :) This again makes it hard for me to compare it to other artforms that have struggled over the years, like waterpainting.
The thing is; even though A LOT of people are doing stuff in Processing or After Effects that might look like demos, and uploading them to YouTube or Vimeo, it really doesn't matter to me, because while it is cool that people are doing visuals and motion graphics, they aren't demos. Only demos have that special combination of skills and self expression (through code AND through graphics AND through animation AND through music at the same time) so for me these other things don't come close.. even though they may look better or have better direction.
So yes; new blood is what it is about really - and as you say; the scene seem to be slowly loosing active members, which have created a new need as well: the need for some small financial support to keep our demo parties running, even though there seem to be less people involved these days. Self-preservation, if you will.
I forgot where this rant was going.. Oh, yes.. :) "Rendering the scene unnecessary" - probably, for some. For those who haven't heard about it or started in it, it might seem redundant, which makes it all the more important that we try our best to make the demoscene one of the first contacts that people have with realtime graphics and expression to code and collaboration. At least, that's my goal. :)
..or I could have just waited until Hyde said this:
..which pretty much sums it up nicely. :)
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Respect tought by the tip of the sword.
..which pretty much sums it up nicely. :)
gloom: Are you sure you just don't want "new blood" so you can whip more newbie-ass in the compos?
kusma: Nah, after a while it just gets tiresome.
I unfortunately agree on the idea that outreach isn't really necessary. In my opinion, what attracts people to the demoscene are outstanding demos, not people talking about demos.
Having said that, last week euskal org gave 1000 escena.org DVDs for free to whoever picked them. On top of that, Sole, Iq and myself did a 1hour speech/introduction to the demoscene which thanks for having slides and being appropriated announced filled the room (100+ people) which also picked a DVD at the end of it. Having the DVD was a really good thing by the way, as there were people asking "So, which software would you recommend to start working on this?", "Well, we've done a DVD which includes all the coding/gfx/music soft you need and even frameworks for 1k,4k,64k :D". Quick and useful answer.
This has attracted a bunch of new users to escena.org and even some people offering their services as gfxman.
So, it may be a little bit helpful, but you really need to make a good job there, with nice and attractive announcement images/posters and making a good and smooth presentation with some demos played on the speech (which is basically what outreach at last assembly failed to do completely).
Having said that, last week euskal org gave 1000 escena.org DVDs for free to whoever picked them. On top of that, Sole, Iq and myself did a 1hour speech/introduction to the demoscene which thanks for having slides and being appropriated announced filled the room (100+ people) which also picked a DVD at the end of it. Having the DVD was a really good thing by the way, as there were people asking "So, which software would you recommend to start working on this?", "Well, we've done a DVD which includes all the coding/gfx/music soft you need and even frameworks for 1k,4k,64k :D". Quick and useful answer.
This has attracted a bunch of new users to escena.org and even some people offering their services as gfxman.
So, it may be a little bit helpful, but you really need to make a good job there, with nice and attractive announcement images/posters and making a good and smooth presentation with some demos played on the speech (which is basically what outreach at last assembly failed to do completely).
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Hang out with like-minded individuals and share ideas and concepts and cheer or boo during competitions that in heart always stayed friendly.
the objective of outreach is to maximize the number of like-minded individuals for you to hang out with. :-)
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I always used to like the complete 'underground' subculture that silently made his mark instead of vocally using advertising.
the prods speak for themselves, ofcourse. but how underground was the scene in 1994, really? i'm quite sure that basically every lamer in zevenaar and surroundings back then knew what the scene was about, had seen some demoscene products and knew who to turn to if they wanted to joiin the fun. main cause for this (imho) was that the distribution channels of warez and demoscene prods still overlapped in those days, that situation has changed drastically by now. we could indeed not respond to this, and accept that the scene will never leave its downward spiral. in fact, that was exactly what the atariscene did in 1998, when we didn't get invited to the main easter party of the year for the first time. we isolated ourselves from the scene, organising our own meetings where we were not subject to evil nasty pc/amiga organising guys. while this isolation was good for our self confidence, it did make it rather apparent that our scene was petering out at an incredibly rapid rate. by 2005, the "breakpoint of the atari world" attracted a grand total of 45 visitors. something needed to be done at that point, we chose to reach out and here we are today... happy as fuck to be part of the big family once again, and we even gained a few helping hands in the process.
i would certainly be disappointed if the "big scene" would not learn from it's "little nephew's" mistakes. isolationism is NOT the way to go, with all due respect :)
Trace: When speaking to crowds, having a well-prepared (and rehearsed) presentation with lots of visual aids is a must, I totally agree! With regards to last years Assembly "outreach", well.. water under the bridge. :)
okkie: thanks for speaking out what has been on my mind for a while too!
havoc: true, but it's a different thing. what you endorse is outreach within the scene, striving for platform unity. and that's something that is MOST important, even much much more important than all the out-of-scene outreach.
havoc: true, but it's a different thing. what you endorse is outreach within the scene, striving for platform unity. and that's something that is MOST important, even much much more important than all the out-of-scene outreach.
To get something clear, I'm not against any outreach because I'm an old fart that doesn't like new people in the group. I'm just wondering of all this work is actually worth the effort for something so, let's face it, inane as the demoscene. What do we have to offer to companies like Nvidia (well, cheap content, sure) and Pixar? Besides the quirkiness of real time optimization and size coding. I think I asked this before though.. I'm getting old :)
Oh, and gloom, I do think of demos as a form of art, because for me the interpretation of art is the expression of ones feelings and emotions in a visual or audible way (oil on fire of art discussion :)) but comparing it to water colour painting was maybe a bit to far-fetched indeed.
Oh, and gloom, I do think of demos as a form of art, because for me the interpretation of art is the expression of ones feelings and emotions in a visual or audible way (oil on fire of art discussion :)) but comparing it to water colour painting was maybe a bit to far-fetched indeed.
so.. since this outreach lobby shit is going on for quite a while already..where are all these newcomers anyway? :D
