"Go to Pouet, but not to the BBS"
category: offtopic [glöplog]
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it's "do it yourself" or "wait and shut up".
thats probably an universal truth in the scene indeed =)
Well, we could do a demo about it, but the source code wouldn't be reusable :)
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1: Demozoo looks like a great effort (why no beta?)
It is in beta, and it's as open as it can possibly be without having the whole world descending on it and going "oh, there's a load of unfinished stuff. That sucks."
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So why not just make an API for pouet that demozoo (or similiar) can use to access the prod database
There is one. I haven't got round to using it yet, and it may or may not turn out to be sufficient for Demozoo's purposes. If it isn't, I'll ask Gargaj for some extra bits, and he'll probably implement them, because he's cool like that.
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2: Make a public dump of the DB (sans the passwords/emails) and let those that are interested come up with novel designs for a "new" community (design by committe is usually a dead end but a larger group adopting something that gets traction often works). By letting someone get all the prods,etc from the DB we'd also have an "upgrade" path to go by and thus one such design could "easily" be adopted as pouet 2.0 .
And we're back to the "Gargaj should do this thing, on the offchance that some unspecified person will step up and run with it" suggestions. If you want to create a new site that isn't addressed by the existing efforts, go ahead and build it and *then* talk to Gargaj about Pouet integration. That's what we're doing.
I just had a rather enlightening talk with Gargaj, I understand better what's holding the site back, and what the actual problems are.
It was a long shot for having improvements, and I kinda knew that this thread won't dramatically change the situation at all from the beginning.
Somehow the good talk with him also sparked some ideas, that we shouldn't rely on the guy that codes on this page, and many others - but be clever and maybe have some own ideas how to improve. On that matter, I've just started Pouet Enhancement Suite, as a way to implement some stuff I'd love to see here - and as a way to learn, again. The name may sound obnoxious or even bloated for what it might be, however let's call it a starting point.
I've never written a PlugIn for FFx before, though for Chrome I did, so for what it's worth it might be something you can contribute to - even if it's ideas, UX or images. If you have improvement ideas add them to the issue list as well. I know this all sounds bold, but maybe I can pull it off :)
It was a long shot for having improvements, and I kinda knew that this thread won't dramatically change the situation at all from the beginning.
Somehow the good talk with him also sparked some ideas, that we shouldn't rely on the guy that codes on this page, and many others - but be clever and maybe have some own ideas how to improve. On that matter, I've just started Pouet Enhancement Suite, as a way to implement some stuff I'd love to see here - and as a way to learn, again. The name may sound obnoxious or even bloated for what it might be, however let's call it a starting point.
I've never written a PlugIn for FFx before, though for Chrome I did, so for what it's worth it might be something you can contribute to - even if it's ideas, UX or images. If you have improvement ideas add them to the issue list as well. I know this all sounds bold, but maybe I can pull it off :)
gasman: The DB dump was mostly an option to those shouting for sources, it should be "easier" than throwing out a messy pouet1 source or a non-finished pouet2 and starting to support those that "might" work on it. Going off a DB with a schema gives you a good start to work off. I wouldn't even think of starting on a "redesign" if i didn't have a schema to go by, nothing worse than starting out and then realizing you're totally barking up the wrong alley.
whizzter, it would not be hard to make your own schema and then make a migration tool for whatever database schema pouet has...
And I'm sure, if the code base in pouet is as bad as those who saw it are claiming... the database design is probably even worse and you'd be better off making your own and then migrating.
Not that a demoscene database would be the most complicated database ever, either.
And I'm sure, if the code base in pouet is as bad as those who saw it are claiming... the database design is probably even worse and you'd be better off making your own and then migrating.
Not that a demoscene database would be the most complicated database ever, either.
Does that mean more than 3 groups can make a production finally? :D
mog: Welcome to the future. You may not remember but that's exactly the approach I took 7 years ago when I did the Pouet Attention Whore user.js.
Now I stick to a simple user.css to flag/hide the attention whores.
Either way, feel free to add/implement a few convenience features to Pouet by mean of user.js and co. As Gasman said, if they prove useful/interesting, Gargaj might even nudge Pouet's code a bit in a way that facilitate a specific script.
Now I stick to a simple user.css to flag/hide the attention whores.
Either way, feel free to add/implement a few convenience features to Pouet by mean of user.js and co. As Gasman said, if they prove useful/interesting, Gargaj might even nudge Pouet's code a bit in a way that facilitate a specific script.
p01: Actually the link to the script in the pouet FAQ is not working, can you move the script somewhere else so that we can fix it? :)
It's been said already, but the future of any demoscene project is that all of them connect to the same central DB for prods and/or users. The rest can be whatever.
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the future of any demoscene project is that all of them connect to the same central DB for prods and/or users.
scary
Rejoice! The AttentionWhore user JS listed in the FAQ is back at this address.
JCL: Yes i know you could do that. However w/o any insight into how things work today you're prolly bound either repeat errors or miss considering features that'd people would miss.
groepaz: why?
whizzter: with a decent analysis and a competent database design, that shouldn't be a problem (i.e., NOT doing things the demoscene-way :-) )
Thanks for the code p01, I'll add that as well :)
gloom: i dont think the decentralized and anarchistic nature of the scene goes together well with something like a central database, and i am a strong believer of competition when it comes to things like that. i think its a bit worrying that apperently there are quite some sceners who think that they cant release c64 stuff anywhere else than on csdb, for example.
groepaz: it doesn't matter where the stuff is released as long as there is a central database which has ALL the releases - without being forced to use that alone.
and imagine all the management reports we can generate by some simple datamining!!!! ;)
groepaz: the thing is that nobody wants to maintain prods in 3-4 diff databases.
see the amount of csdb releases which dont make it to pouet for example.
of course one could argue that that is indeed wanted because many oldskoolers dont like pouet but then you can as well fragment it all and grow wild. at least one can be 1337 with knowing where to find stuff this way ;)
see the amount of csdb releases which dont make it to pouet for example.
of course one could argue that that is indeed wanted because many oldskoolers dont like pouet but then you can as well fragment it all and grow wild. at least one can be 1337 with knowing where to find stuff this way ;)
i agree with groepaz, but from a different perspective: the demand for monolithicness of pouet as an attitude/mentality is much more worrisome than the actual data being singularly placed. data can be fed from one site to another - gasman and i had a very pleasant talk about this and revision, and i think the cooperation between pouet and demozoo is going to be interesting.
essentially, now that there are no diskmags and other scene sites, there's no other place to get or submit (multiplatform) scene content other than pouet (and the bitfellas feed, but ONLY the feed). that also means that any sort of information you wanna share (e.g. a demo review), you will be putting it on pouet. i mean it's prollly weird to say this as the guy who runs this site, but i as a scener wish stuff would be more diffuse and people wouldnt be afraid to start other, more specific sites like ojuice used to be.
displayhack was a great example of a very content-specific site, and poundsoff is an amazing example of how you can do something interesting in a few days with some really basic code, but it disturbs me that it's always the same people running the shows.
when's the last time you read an extensive demo review blog? it's near-zero effort to set up, all it would need is a fucking wordpress, really, and boom, you can be the next demoo/monostep/ths/thetunnel. if we go back to the asm compostudio, there were a couple of points where there was actual profound discussion about what people liked or disliked in certain demos - certainly those people wouldnt mind occasionally writing it down? and certainly, reading something like that would be more fascinating for a newcomer than the largely single-syllable comments galore that is pouet?
essentially, now that there are no diskmags and other scene sites, there's no other place to get or submit (multiplatform) scene content other than pouet (and the bitfellas feed, but ONLY the feed). that also means that any sort of information you wanna share (e.g. a demo review), you will be putting it on pouet. i mean it's prollly weird to say this as the guy who runs this site, but i as a scener wish stuff would be more diffuse and people wouldnt be afraid to start other, more specific sites like ojuice used to be.
displayhack was a great example of a very content-specific site, and poundsoff is an amazing example of how you can do something interesting in a few days with some really basic code, but it disturbs me that it's always the same people running the shows.
when's the last time you read an extensive demo review blog? it's near-zero effort to set up, all it would need is a fucking wordpress, really, and boom, you can be the next demoo/monostep/ths/thetunnel. if we go back to the asm compostudio, there were a couple of points where there was actual profound discussion about what people liked or disliked in certain demos - certainly those people wouldnt mind occasionally writing it down? and certainly, reading something like that would be more fascinating for a newcomer than the largely single-syllable comments galore that is pouet?
(don't send them...)
The BBS is not that bad, but the prod comments are a problem: quite a few people use high standards from real world, movies, TV, games so their (honest) comments end up being unfriendly to newcomers. It sometimes looks similar to telling a 3 year old child that their first stickmen drawing is complete tasteless, she can hardly draw a straight line and the colors suck, too. You can clearly see it's a first try but it's judged like the elites made it.
Competition is good, yes, honesty too, but you need to give people a chance to get a black belt too before you kick their ass :P
(v1.0)
Only flaw I can see in current pouet is that the "coup the coeur" thing should have an image displayed too - or replace it by some "demo of the day" that randomly picks 1 prod that is flagged "viewing tip".
The BBS is not that bad, but the prod comments are a problem: quite a few people use high standards from real world, movies, TV, games so their (honest) comments end up being unfriendly to newcomers. It sometimes looks similar to telling a 3 year old child that their first stickmen drawing is complete tasteless, she can hardly draw a straight line and the colors suck, too. You can clearly see it's a first try but it's judged like the elites made it.
Competition is good, yes, honesty too, but you need to give people a chance to get a black belt too before you kick their ass :P
(v1.0)
Only flaw I can see in current pouet is that the "coup the coeur" thing should have an image displayed too - or replace it by some "demo of the day" that randomly picks 1 prod that is flagged "viewing tip".
groepaz: I might have worded it wrongly -- the point is that for the sake of data integrity, the basic aspects of the prod database that powers Pouet (and soon, Demozoo), should not ble forked. The demoscene is literally tiny, and keeping the data intact and "sane" should be a definite goal for anyone into making Pouet 2.0 or whatever.
The point is: prods are still prods. Whatever people want to ADD TO on those prods, be it discussion or another layer of reference data, is a completely different thing. So, to clarify: a db with a well-defined API powered and hosted centrally (by Scene.org for example) is a damn good way to ensure that building other types of sites around the same content is both possible and encouraged.
The point is: prods are still prods. Whatever people want to ADD TO on those prods, be it discussion or another layer of reference data, is a completely different thing. So, to clarify: a db with a well-defined API powered and hosted centrally (by Scene.org for example) is a damn good way to ensure that building other types of sites around the same content is both possible and encouraged.
Somehow i fail to see how a centralized database (which could be mirrored/synced on many physical servers if redundancy/administration privilege is an issue) would kill the diversity of scene sites even more.
basically think scene.org just with a better api/meta infos.
in fact i think it would be easier to start a new site, also one which just specialises on certain things (russian speccy-demo reviews, c64 gfx, dubstep dj-sets by sceners, whatever) since it wouldnt have to host the prods and the meta info (incl. screenshots and video) itself.
Imagine Anni doing a shiny HD-Capture of a demo that was on youtube before and you just have to edit the video-link at one place and every site using it would be up to date.
Of course maintaining such a database would still remain a shitload of work, automation aint gonna cut it in all aspects.
I guess all Im saying is that its better to maintain it one time, not 5 times.
basically think scene.org just with a better api/meta infos.
in fact i think it would be easier to start a new site, also one which just specialises on certain things (russian speccy-demo reviews, c64 gfx, dubstep dj-sets by sceners, whatever) since it wouldnt have to host the prods and the meta info (incl. screenshots and video) itself.
Imagine Anni doing a shiny HD-Capture of a demo that was on youtube before and you just have to edit the video-link at one place and every site using it would be up to date.
Of course maintaining such a database would still remain a shitload of work, automation aint gonna cut it in all aspects.
I guess all Im saying is that its better to maintain it one time, not 5 times.
It sounds like people want and are talking about different things from one another.
There's blogs versus a discussion board vs prod comments or reviews.
There's a prod database with "vital stats".
There's file hosting.
It does seem to me to make sense to have vital stats and file hosting centralized. Certainly for us orgas who have to go get entries onto wherever stuff needs to go.
What Garg said about diskmags bears repeating. It would be nice if the scene had more curation of mid-level prods, more people doing a rundown of "this is what came out this month, these are my well-considered comments on it." The effort barrier to jabber online is nil nowadays.
And what he said about the 90%/10% rule will kill the scene was valid too.
And not just on tools, on prods.
I'm half tempted to throw a Wordpress up somewhere and ask sceners to contribute to a pseudo-diskmag with demo reviews and technical articles, but I don't want to cannibalize Displayhack, and I don't want to do it on my own . . .
There's blogs versus a discussion board vs prod comments or reviews.
There's a prod database with "vital stats".
There's file hosting.
It does seem to me to make sense to have vital stats and file hosting centralized. Certainly for us orgas who have to go get entries onto wherever stuff needs to go.
What Garg said about diskmags bears repeating. It would be nice if the scene had more curation of mid-level prods, more people doing a rundown of "this is what came out this month, these are my well-considered comments on it." The effort barrier to jabber online is nil nowadays.
And what he said about the 90%/10% rule will kill the scene was valid too.
And not just on tools, on prods.
I'm half tempted to throw a Wordpress up somewhere and ask sceners to contribute to a pseudo-diskmag with demo reviews and technical articles, but I don't want to cannibalize Displayhack, and I don't want to do it on my own . . .
