Demoscene, the youth & future - And outreaching
category: general [glöplog]
SEND THE MAIL :D DECIPHER AND I ARE GETTING ANXIOUS :P
Sent!!!
thanks :)
np!
Btw ontopic, you might want to emphasize the 'free' aspect more also, since that's what drew me in on an "ideological" level and might work on others who could then see the scene as a more legit avenue to express themselves :p
I tried to mention this in my first post but it kinda malfunctioned.
Btw ontopic, you might want to emphasize the 'free' aspect more also, since that's what drew me in on an "ideological" level and might work on others who could then see the scene as a more legit avenue to express themselves :p
I tried to mention this in my first post but it kinda malfunctioned.
Hyde, that's a very good and valid question and I've thought of it myself too. :)
As I don't feel much appeal to majority of stuff demoscene, then the little I do find interesting I'd surely have to find VERY interesting. There are plenty of examples of a "story based" demos, however. Take many PWP productions or KsM!'s "Matka Alamaailmaan".
I may have used a bit misleading term. With "story" I mostly meant content created with text, strong cultural references and plot. Strong content of text & art could be seen in say, CPU's "Anger" or Aspekt's "BoomBoom".
As _-_-__ , the aspects in demos I find most appealing do not exclude the rest. So combined with technicality, visuality and so forth, it may turn even more interesting.
What comes to the "artistic aeshetics", like previously mentioned, "The Golden Path" was actually fascinating to watch; And iSO productions, in some weird way, to me are the one extreme of pure spontaneous .. "art" and flow and I like them a lot.
Anyway - I think demoscene in future will focus more on wider range of multimedia. Very few of my IRL friends who are oriented to creative arts or programming have much interest towards demoscene - I think they'd been more interested in past.
PS: Also, big reason to attend demoscene parties is the great atmosphere and the best boozing and partying ever ;)
PS2: And, again, I'm not really wanting to judge or fully sum up what demoscene or it's future is about. I bet you'd get as many answers to those questions as there are sceners - But I am merely considering the ways of attracting more youngling.
As I don't feel much appeal to majority of stuff demoscene, then the little I do find interesting I'd surely have to find VERY interesting. There are plenty of examples of a "story based" demos, however. Take many PWP productions or KsM!'s "Matka Alamaailmaan".
I may have used a bit misleading term. With "story" I mostly meant content created with text, strong cultural references and plot. Strong content of text & art could be seen in say, CPU's "Anger" or Aspekt's "BoomBoom".
As _-_-__ , the aspects in demos I find most appealing do not exclude the rest. So combined with technicality, visuality and so forth, it may turn even more interesting.
What comes to the "artistic aeshetics", like previously mentioned, "The Golden Path" was actually fascinating to watch; And iSO productions, in some weird way, to me are the one extreme of pure spontaneous .. "art" and flow and I like them a lot.
Anyway - I think demoscene in future will focus more on wider range of multimedia. Very few of my IRL friends who are oriented to creative arts or programming have much interest towards demoscene - I think they'd been more interested in past.
PS: Also, big reason to attend demoscene parties is the great atmosphere and the best boozing and partying ever ;)
PS2: And, again, I'm not really wanting to judge or fully sum up what demoscene or it's future is about. I bet you'd get as many answers to those questions as there are sceners - But I am merely considering the ways of attracting more youngling.
*in demoscene..
Meh, that text went ultrabroken. Sorry about those thousands of typos.
Meh, that text went ultrabroken. Sorry about those thousands of typos.
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Therefore, we all make up the different colors of the spectrum. And seeing that the color spectrum of the scene is wide and complete it is wonderful to rejoice for what we have; an immense diversity which means richness in culture and personal tastes.
Couldn't agree more and it's heartening to see that YUP members appear to be more interested in taking part in what is already here and helping to evolve what we already have as one large intermingled BLOB called The Scene rather than making themselves outcasts.
I'm not sure what the poster of this thread would like to see in the scene, but he appears to be wanting to divide the scene up into categories and subcultures, seperating us by age and labels which is not needed and I think not wanted even by "the youngsters" here (who, btw, have proven in this years ASM that they can compete on fully equal terms and add plenty of their own touch). Perhaps he would like seperate sections in party halls with Truck at one end and Ferris at another :) Perhaps he didn;t see the pair together on ASM TV having fun - nobody was "alienating" Ferris because he is young. Look at the coments on YUP's latest prod. Ridiculous.
I guess the scene just respects and welcomes people who do GOOD demos, regardless of age. If you are 6 years old and make good quality prods, you will be loved and respected. If you are 74 years old and make shit, you will be boo'd off stage. it's as simple as that.
let's leave the "sub-cultures" (and trying to divide people into sub-categories) for the outside world of consumer product marketing, politics and business. This is the scene where everyone does what he wants and contributes to the whole in his own unique way.
I guess if anything, the demoscene may not be as popular with "the young" as it once was because the young, as a whole, today seem to shy away from anything which takes more than a couple of days to grasp and master. but there are still nerdy youngsters, such as Ferris & Decipher and their little gang, out there who (if they have the right mentality) WILL find the scene and will absolutely love it for what it is and join and help take things forward with their own unique perspectives.
no trendy superficial "sub-cultures" necessary. if the scene dies because youngsters today are more attracted to places such as the trendy (relatively easy) drag-n-drop flash design scene, then that may be more of a reflection of todays youth than a failing of the scene? just maybe.
pair together on ASM TV? I wasn't there :) but I did watch the studio after the 4k compo and I was very very pleased to hear them talk about the intro fairly and NOT taking my age into account, because we're here to make good demos; not relatively-good-by-our-age demos.
gloom: I'm thinking about what you say about boozing destroying the demoscene (kind of, coders at least). Today we don't code at the party, we code beforehand and then drink beer and socialize at the party. For one todays demos takes a shitload more effort than a scroller, tunnel and some vectors.
The drink&puke-guys you refer to, were they demosceners, coders, random people just like to drink? Wannabies even?
</gloom>
In the early days most people in the scene were under 20. Today young people tend to play network games instead. Then maybe modify the game with mods and so on becoming programmers, not so much to understand the computer rather than just evolving software wize.
Today I'm 32 and do occationally enjoy a beer. I'm not shy in large groups like I was when I was younger so I like to socialize. But I still enjoy coding at a party, but that's not the only thing I like no more. Also, I didn't code my first demo until I was 19, but started programming when I was 11. I don't think people start programming that early anymore, it's too hard to start (qbasic anyone?)
How to attract new people? Just keep making quality stuff I'd say. Demos are free to enjoy and the more demos on videosites and slashdot, the more people will come by.
The drink&puke-guys you refer to, were they demosceners, coders, random people just like to drink? Wannabies even?
</gloom>
In the early days most people in the scene were under 20. Today young people tend to play network games instead. Then maybe modify the game with mods and so on becoming programmers, not so much to understand the computer rather than just evolving software wize.
Today I'm 32 and do occationally enjoy a beer. I'm not shy in large groups like I was when I was younger so I like to socialize. But I still enjoy coding at a party, but that's not the only thing I like no more. Also, I didn't code my first demo until I was 19, but started programming when I was 11. I don't think people start programming that early anymore, it's too hard to start (qbasic anyone?)
How to attract new people? Just keep making quality stuff I'd say. Demos are free to enjoy and the more demos on videosites and slashdot, the more people will come by.
thec: totally agree. most young people today are not interested in the scene's unique combination of art & technical skill. it's too much effort when they can prerender animations 100% easier in Maya or Max and it will look x10000 better. they do not really seem to appretiate the idea of "creative yet technical craft" which the scene really is about (i think for most). its just too boring. but as i said, there are still some _true_ nerds being born, as we know and witness on the scene today.
ferris: ah ok, it must have been some other young whipper-snapper (just goes to show we have a few) :) i'm sure this dude was from YUP, although I'm not 100% certain.
but yes, anyway, it's good that people in the studio (and party in general I think) were looking at YUP's work objectively without the patronizing "very good work, for such young sceners!!!" stuff. but then it has never been that way on the scene. i remember quite a few examples from the past of "younger than average" people springing up and really showing the "older guys" on the scene that they are more than capable.
i think that's just the way the scene is - it has never patronized "the young". on the other side, if you do not do good work, I guess you will also be told and may well feel "alienated" (as tzaeru claims) - but i doubt that feeling due to being young on the scene - it may just be because you're lame? :)
ferris: ah ok, it must have been some other young whipper-snapper (just goes to show we have a few) :) i'm sure this dude was from YUP, although I'm not 100% certain.
but yes, anyway, it's good that people in the studio (and party in general I think) were looking at YUP's work objectively without the patronizing "very good work, for such young sceners!!!" stuff. but then it has never been that way on the scene. i remember quite a few examples from the past of "younger than average" people springing up and really showing the "older guys" on the scene that they are more than capable.
i think that's just the way the scene is - it has never patronized "the young". on the other side, if you do not do good work, I guess you will also be told and may well feel "alienated" (as tzaeru claims) - but i doubt that feeling due to being young on the scene - it may just be because you're lame? :)
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in no way were radiating an elitist feeling unlike big part of Finnish demoscene
[...]
the Finnish channel is an absolute waste of time for anyone interested in demoscene
*whistles*
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You don't really have tight restrictions forcing you to make something that the audience is expecting, you're always allowed to experiment and find new and interesting ways to present your ideas, whatever they might be.
and if you do that, you should be prepared to receive a lot of thumbs down and close-minded comments. this happens to anyone trying to bring the concept of demos forward from the archaic de facto standards of the 80s, but the problem is, the newcomers might not be prepared to deal with it so they get discouraged. a key factor here is to explain to yourself what it is you want to do: do the stuff you want (the art viewpoint), do the stuff your target audience wants (the competition viewpoint), or try and combine the two.
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Don't flame the newbies, don't thumb their first production down, rather tell them what they've done well and what could be improved. Another idea I've had is to create separate democompos for people who've made their first/second/third demo.
this is just retarded. thumbers: please do thumb down any kind of crap regardless of who made it. authors: please don't get discouraged by it, but think about what you could do better. also think about if it's a matter of taste or a matter of quality. that is, if someone thinks you should do something different in your production, does he mean he personally doesn't like the style, or does he mean you could do better in the style you chose? you just need some discretion when browsing the feedback. that also applies for the source of the feedback - you'll learn whose comments are solid and based on experience.
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Having witnessed a couple of comebacks or newcomers trying to make their way into 'the scene', they often get demotivated by the (sometimes incestuous) character of it. Think of unwritten ethics and narrow-minded ppl here...
It often comes down to the fact quite a few are scared by newcomers who have different ideas on things, as for - when accepted as general ethics - their own platform of fame could collapse.
sander has leading.
on a not necessarily related note, the most recent thing that blew my mind was the amount of "not demo-like enough" or "it's too much like a tv advert" or "doesn't have that demo feeling" comments on frameranger. i mean, what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
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Regarding boozing: if it was two things that "broke" the norwegian demoscene in the mid/late-90s, it was these:
2) Drinking and puking instead of coding
see, the trick is, you work hard on your demos beforehand and engage in happy binge drinking (and optional puking) during the party.
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I'm not sure what the poster of this thread would like to see in the scene, but he appears to be wanting to divide the scene up into categories and subcultures, seperating us by age and labels which is not needed and I think not wanted even by "the youngsters" here
you're missing the point. he just wants to attract more youngsters to the scene so that they could become an integral part of it, not so that we could lock them up in a cage and point fingers. and throw tomatoes at them. mmm, tomatoes.
thec: started when I was 9 ;)
read: just to point out some do start that early.
some "random" thoughts:
- are there really so much less young sceners today than there were back then (early 90ies for me) when the "scene" was so much smaller? (lurking in the shadows of the internetz?)
- being young is not a handicap (on the contrary, I think. fresh approaches to old problems, mood swings pushing creativity, ability to learn faster)
- you grow old fast enough (I'm also 32 now) and keeping up becomes harder (higher standards etc)
- don't be intimidated by the "bighouse" demos. a certain number of guys behind these are fulltime high profile game devs with years of experience and the opportunity to learn todays (gfx) technologies during their work hours (no guys, this is not a diss, I'm just saying)
- nice stuff can be made with simple techniques, it's all about style, IMHO
- are there really so much less young sceners today than there were back then (early 90ies for me) when the "scene" was so much smaller? (lurking in the shadows of the internetz?)
- being young is not a handicap (on the contrary, I think. fresh approaches to old problems, mood swings pushing creativity, ability to learn faster)
- you grow old fast enough (I'm also 32 now) and keeping up becomes harder (higher standards etc)
- don't be intimidated by the "bighouse" demos. a certain number of guys behind these are fulltime high profile game devs with years of experience and the opportunity to learn todays (gfx) technologies during their work hours (no guys, this is not a diss, I'm just saying)
- nice stuff can be made with simple techniques, it's all about style, IMHO
This guy (topic starter) is a fucking nazi and nobody seems to give a shit. WTF.
Farris: I was 2. Fucking 2.
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let's leave the "sub-cultures" (and trying to divide people into sub-categories) for the outside world of consumer product marketing, politics and business. This is the scene where everyone does what he wants and contributes to the whole in his own unique way.
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Quote:I'm not sure what the poster of this thread would like to see in the scene, but he appears to be wanting to divide the scene up into categories and subcultures, seperating us by age and labels which is not needed and I think not wanted even by "the youngsters" here
you're missing the point. he just wants to attract more youngsters to the scene so that they could become an integral part of it, not so that we could lock them up in a cage and point fingers. and throw tomatoes at them. mmm, tomatoes.
Yep, you did miss my point. ;) I didn't say that demoscene needs or would have subcultures. As a sidenote, I was wondering the relation of demoscene to other subcultures within digital art scenes. And what actually does it mean to be part of demoscene and an active demoscener in comparison to being an active director or an active animator - Necessarily, not much since demoscene has both kind of people. And from this I thought of the possibility of demoscene sort of merging to be an integral and undistinguishable part of whole digital multimedia art scene.
Anyway, the point was the people's opinions on how demoscene should be brought up and how succesful have things like scenebooth been or how succesful parties that target a larger audience, such as Alternative Party, have been.
From most of what is written here now, it seems that majority think demoscene would not need much bringing up at all, as the people who'd be interested in it will find it anyway.
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You don't really have tight restrictions forcing you to make something that the audience is expecting, you're always allowed to experiment and find new and interesting ways to present your ideas, whatever they might be.
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and if you do that, you should be prepared to receive a lot of thumbs down and close-minded comments. this happens to anyone trying to bring the concept of demos forward from the archaic de facto standards of the 80s, but the problem is, the newcomers might not be prepared to deal with it so they get discouraged. a key factor here is to explain to yourself what it is you want to do: do the stuff you want (the art viewpoint), do the stuff your target audience wants (the competition viewpoint), or try and combine the two.
I agree with reed on that. If it sucks, it sucks, no matter of platform or experimentation. Weirdly some obscure platforms actually have very good stuff even with the limited opportunities - that, sort of, feeds creativity I think. ^^
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some "random" thoughts:
- are there really so much less young sceners today than there were back then (early 90ies for me) when the "scene" was so much smaller? (lurking in the shadows of the internetz?)
I haven't been in scene for long and only know bits of the history of Finnish demoscene in particular. Of that, the ratio between people under 20 and people over 20 was maybe 1:1, when now it appears to be closer to 1:20.
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- being young is not a handicap (on the contrary, I think. fresh approaches to old problems, mood swings pushing creativity, ability to learn faster)
Not at all. I like being young myself. I just find myself often bored within demoscene in lack of like-minded people (okey, whatever you may say, it's VERY different to be 18 and 22 what comes to partying. AHHEM. I like partying.. <.< ); Needs more chaos like Exotic Men offered.
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- don't be intimidated by the "bighouse" demos. a certain number of guys behind these are fulltime high profile game devs with years of experience and the opportunity to learn todays (gfx) technologies during their work hours (no guys, this is not a diss, I'm just saying)
- nice stuff can be made with simple techniques, it's all about style, IMHO
Yup - Which, maybe, is why young people rather take interest in different kind of art scenes and demoscene, while it would have plenty of room, does not appeal to them as they don't necessarily see the most creative and challenging sides of it. And I think that should be brought up more - And I think many people have done really good job with that, like nosfe.
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This guy (topic starter) is a fucking nazi and nobody seems to give a shit. WTF.
Yes, I am a radical far-right national socialist, fear me.
link doesn't work, put it on tinypic or sth.
so, is your last statement sarcasm or are you really a "nazi" ?
I thought that some of your text was insightful but how do you think condemning a huge crowd of people just because of nationality/race mixes with "open mindness" ?
(ah, I don't actually want to start a political discussion here.. I have my heart on the "left" side..JSYK)
so, is your last statement sarcasm or are you really a "nazi" ?
I thought that some of your text was insightful but how do you think condemning a huge crowd of people just because of nationality/race mixes with "open mindness" ?
(ah, I don't actually want to start a political discussion here.. I have my heart on the "left" side..JSYK)
hermes, you can judge yourself my level of naziness: http://koti.kapsi.fi/tzaeru/omg/lord_TZA.png
I'm less interested in truth than illusion anyway. I don't think I have to be very clear of my political agenda - and those who know me sort of automatically know it - as it isn't a meaningful thing here. In real life I have good friends in both extremes so I'm rarely serious of my own political ideas. Only when they actually matter.
Usually, politics don't matter.
I'm less interested in truth than illusion anyway. I don't think I have to be very clear of my political agenda - and those who know me sort of automatically know it - as it isn't a meaningful thing here. In real life I have good friends in both extremes so I'm rarely serious of my own political ideas. Only when they actually matter.
Usually, politics don't matter.
:) okay then.
Let's not talk politics. The world is much too complex to be categorized and labeled.
I also have friends on both "sides". Actually the formerly "right" ppl. turned into "left" when they grew up (coz they weren't really "right" after all, just had trouble with a few of "foreign" ppl in bad neighbour hoods. more like the gang thing if you think about it)
the ones I fear are the right-minded ppl. whose main agenda is to long for power and wealth at the expense of their "underlings" (which is us, the common folk).
peace.
Let's not talk politics. The world is much too complex to be categorized and labeled.
I also have friends on both "sides". Actually the formerly "right" ppl. turned into "left" when they grew up (coz they weren't really "right" after all, just had trouble with a few of "foreign" ppl in bad neighbour hoods. more like the gang thing if you think about it)
the ones I fear are the right-minded ppl. whose main agenda is to long for power and wealth at the expense of their "underlings" (which is us, the common folk).
peace.
so, who is a nazi again? :)
goodnight..
goodnight..
Let me be a bit nerdish here!
--OFFTOPIC-
Now, we all know DnD alingments.
Personally, I consider left-right differences being more about lawful-chaotic than good-evil. I always joked about that with one of my very good black metal -friends. Well, we're both into absolute chaos and evil, but he's also into the NSBM stuff while I was more into the punk and rock - Thus, chaotic.
And according to few wicked DnD tests, that I think worked -very- good to the persons that listed the results, I am between Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Neutral. I think that fits me perfectly.
With no prejudgements, I am nice to those who are nice to me and fucking bitch to those who don't walk along my path.
That friend, on the other hand, is usually nice to everyone and takes very formally into many things. I rather take the things, and break them.
Then run away before the cops get there.
And my political ideas naturally reflect from that. Satanix hailz.
Also, he wouldn't joke like this about black metal and world. I would, sometimes. Then I might also punch someone who jokes wrong about it.
Maybe.
You never know.
--BACK ON TOPIC.--
Weekend next week there's going to be Demowall in "Nights of Art". I think this kind of things are -really- good for demoscene and there's the chance to reach for the youth and the artistically oriented people who have no clue about demoscene yet ;)
--OFFTOPIC-
Now, we all know DnD alingments.
Personally, I consider left-right differences being more about lawful-chaotic than good-evil. I always joked about that with one of my very good black metal -friends. Well, we're both into absolute chaos and evil, but he's also into the NSBM stuff while I was more into the punk and rock - Thus, chaotic.
And according to few wicked DnD tests, that I think worked -very- good to the persons that listed the results, I am between Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Neutral. I think that fits me perfectly.
With no prejudgements, I am nice to those who are nice to me and fucking bitch to those who don't walk along my path.
That friend, on the other hand, is usually nice to everyone and takes very formally into many things. I rather take the things, and break them.
Then run away before the cops get there.
And my political ideas naturally reflect from that. Satanix hailz.
Also, he wouldn't joke like this about black metal and world. I would, sometimes. Then I might also punch someone who jokes wrong about it.
Maybe.
You never know.
--BACK ON TOPIC.--
Weekend next week there's going to be Demowall in "Nights of Art". I think this kind of things are -really- good for demoscene and there's the chance to reach for the youth and the artistically oriented people who have no clue about demoscene yet ;)
whoa, such a long thread and it hasn't been pouetized yet. love the nazi accusations though!
after asm on sunday we were discussing on irc with few people that it might be a good idea to get some junior-compos for asm, even maybe accompanied with some seminars/help sessions to get kids started on making demos. not sure if anyone really started to work on it yet, or even will, but i think something like that might be a good idea.
get people started perhaps with something like showing them how to do a demo with rotating cube, logo and a scroller text. or something. :)
such compo could for example happen at scenebooth or some other area, and then the main prize would be to get on the real big screen of the party hall. or something.
and yeah, definitely it's not a good idea for newcomers to try to do anything that's outside of the 'general concept of demos' as the only thing they'd get is comments saying that they don't belong here.
btw. has there been anything like scenebooth on the gathering, or some other huge events (sweden still has dreamhack, or does it? )
after asm on sunday we were discussing on irc with few people that it might be a good idea to get some junior-compos for asm, even maybe accompanied with some seminars/help sessions to get kids started on making demos. not sure if anyone really started to work on it yet, or even will, but i think something like that might be a good idea.
get people started perhaps with something like showing them how to do a demo with rotating cube, logo and a scroller text. or something. :)
such compo could for example happen at scenebooth or some other area, and then the main prize would be to get on the real big screen of the party hall. or something.
and yeah, definitely it's not a good idea for newcomers to try to do anything that's outside of the 'general concept of demos' as the only thing they'd get is comments saying that they don't belong here.
btw. has there been anything like scenebooth on the gathering, or some other huge events (sweden still has dreamhack, or does it? )
accompanied with some seminars/help sessions to get kids started on making demos
take this with a big smile but you're starting to sound like the Grand Puba.
Seminars won't do shit, as someone already pointed out. Those who are really interested will find their way, whatever it takes.
What I think we should do is make tools to ease the "code" vs. "art" transition.
big smile, mind you.
take this with a big smile but you're starting to sound like the Grand Puba.
Seminars won't do shit, as someone already pointed out. Those who are really interested will find their way, whatever it takes.
What I think we should do is make tools to ease the "code" vs. "art" transition.
big smile, mind you.