The 64 MB limit at BP07
category: general [glöplog]
fact is that i recall some demoparty in france (which is on my mind a very graphician+design-heavy country) upping the disksize for democompo to 64megs a few years ago.. maybe it was saturne or lcp??
dreamhack have had 50mb in the democompo for 3 years now..
Quote:
Another possibility would be to have a low (5mb) democompo limit and an unlimited size realtime demo compo aside.
Agreed. The categories could be called: Reasonably Sized Demo and Huge Bloated Demo compo ;)
-Rainmaker the Coder
winden, at the START party we had a megademo category. I think the limit was something around 200Mb. Or maybe even unlimited. In the end it only got one entry.
(calodox' dionysos http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=8298)
by the way, i doubt pc demomakers will use it for big animated skyboxes (like certain amiga demos) or something like that.
it's not actually the textures that are the biggest problem, by the way - it's the geometry. 100,000 vertices at 32 bytes or more per vertex, per model, and then indices as well - even if you compress it you're going to spend a few mb per model. (any modern card can render that easily.)
and then what happens when you add in normalmaps, pre-created volume textures, high quality cubemaps, some pre-calced fx data you dont want to generate at runtime, lighting data, animations..? you get a shitload of data.
5+ years ago when the size limit was like 8mb - half what it was at bp last year - pcs could render far less stuff and had far less memory, and we had crappy internet connections. those factors improved by 20x in the past few years. in those days you could store much more than you could render - not anymore.
thanks to the bp organisers we'll be able to use our artists work without massacring it first - the machine can handle it easily, so we'll look forward to using it. and we might get a democompo which is isnt a "lazy 64ks with mp3 soundtracks" compo. :)
it's not actually the textures that are the biggest problem, by the way - it's the geometry. 100,000 vertices at 32 bytes or more per vertex, per model, and then indices as well - even if you compress it you're going to spend a few mb per model. (any modern card can render that easily.)
and then what happens when you add in normalmaps, pre-created volume textures, high quality cubemaps, some pre-calced fx data you dont want to generate at runtime, lighting data, animations..? you get a shitload of data.
5+ years ago when the size limit was like 8mb - half what it was at bp last year - pcs could render far less stuff and had far less memory, and we had crappy internet connections. those factors improved by 20x in the past few years. in those days you could store much more than you could render - not anymore.
thanks to the bp organisers we'll be able to use our artists work without massacring it first - the machine can handle it easily, so we'll look forward to using it. and we might get a democompo which is isnt a "lazy 64ks with mp3 soundtracks" compo. :)
In my ever so humble opinion the rules in the Amiga compo shouldn't simply be the specs of the latest TBL demo. Of course whatever the limit is, some groups are going to use all the space they're given. That doesn't reflect trends in the Amiga scene, saying we've grown beyond those 16 MB now or anything like that. It reflects the size limit itself and nothing else.
So, this year the size limit is 20 MB, and you'll most likely see some 20 MB demos. And you'll take that as confirmation that 16 MB would have been too strict and feel good about it. In 2008 you'll assume that the limit should be 25 because how else would TBL release a demo more impressive than their BP07 one. And sure enough, the BP08 demo is 25 MB and more impressive.
But all the while you're making a lot of impressive feats of coding seem like a waste of time. Say inverse kinematics, for example. That might look good and all, but nobody would believe you if you said it was realtime - cause you have all the space in the world to store the precalculated movements. So please, don't think of it as just creating new opportunities, because you're also taking something away from the Amiga scene by suggesting massive demos like Starstruck should set the standard.
Though, personally I'm OK with 20 MB because I can do animated skyboxes too :P. But if it goes much higher than that.. well..
So, this year the size limit is 20 MB, and you'll most likely see some 20 MB demos. And you'll take that as confirmation that 16 MB would have been too strict and feel good about it. In 2008 you'll assume that the limit should be 25 because how else would TBL release a demo more impressive than their BP07 one. And sure enough, the BP08 demo is 25 MB and more impressive.
But all the while you're making a lot of impressive feats of coding seem like a waste of time. Say inverse kinematics, for example. That might look good and all, but nobody would believe you if you said it was realtime - cause you have all the space in the world to store the precalculated movements. So please, don't think of it as just creating new opportunities, because you're also taking something away from the Amiga scene by suggesting massive demos like Starstruck should set the standard.
Though, personally I'm OK with 20 MB because I can do animated skyboxes too :P. But if it goes much higher than that.. well..
<dangerours mode>
Soon we will see combined Demo & Wild Demo compos.
</dangerours mode>
Soon we will see combined Demo & Wild Demo compos.
</dangerours mode>
64mb is also encouraging 5.1 high-def sound! surround should be supported - even encouraged and/or OBLIGATORY - at demo parties.
i wish i had been at simulaatio :(
i wish i had been at simulaatio :(
Please, increase EXE-music size to 64 Mb as well. Oh, and almost forgot: don't forget to increase 64k-intro size to 128 Mb.
yae a 128MB crack intro on a 256TB archive of BattleField 2008 on a 512TB datacrystal in 2015 \o/ ....outta beer...need beer
now...that I have a beer...
in the end each interested person can see the total size of the archive after the compo on the party network and make an own judgment- balance on quality vs. filesize and vote of course.
in the end each interested person can see the total size of the archive after the compo on the party network and make an own judgment- balance on quality vs. filesize and vote of course.
I think its a good idea to display
the .rar size of the demo before it begins on the bigscreen next to the name of the demo
in the demo compo so people can take this in account when they judge the compo entry and thus
with the voting itself!
the .rar size of the demo before it begins on the bigscreen next to the name of the demo
in the demo compo so people can take this in account when they judge the compo entry and thus
with the voting itself!
64mb size limit is the way to go!
Who cares? It's the democompo, the compo for the lame and weak.
Give us a 32kB intro compo instead.
Give us a 32kB intro compo instead.
FAKK!!! I wrote a long fucking thing here, and the pouet fucker said I had to be logged in...I WAS fucker...FHAAK.
Well, probably for the best, here is the short version.
How about stating the filesize on the bigscreen together with group and demoname. This way people can take the size in consideration when the voting is done.
F.i BP06 exe music compo, I think Gargaj would have won if it was stated on the screen that it only took 1881 bytes (I really shit my pants now if it actually did..hehe) It should have won anyway, but thats besides the point.
My point is that I think most sceners are more impressed with what can be done with less. You see it all the time. A500demos, C64demos,Mobile demos,tamagutchi demos(or what the hell that thing was :D)
If the size trend continues maybe more and more people wont bother watching the democompo, and focus more on 4 and 64ks.
Well, probably for the best, here is the short version.
How about stating the filesize on the bigscreen together with group and demoname. This way people can take the size in consideration when the voting is done.
F.i BP06 exe music compo, I think Gargaj would have won if it was stated on the screen that it only took 1881 bytes (I really shit my pants now if it actually did..hehe) It should have won anyway, but thats besides the point.
My point is that I think most sceners are more impressed with what can be done with less. You see it all the time. A500demos, C64demos,Mobile demos,tamagutchi demos(or what the hell that thing was :D)
If the size trend continues maybe more and more people wont bother watching the democompo, and focus more on 4 and 64ks.
FHAAAK! Magic beat me to it. Stupid pouet.net.
;)
;)
Why the hell is there a limit? Why be so damn old fashioned and use a size limit, thats so oldskoolish.
coz itz ze PHAAAKINK roots ;P
All my non-scene friends ask me whoever did this or that "video".
- "well buddy, it fits in 64 kilobytes. A M$ Word doc if you will"
- *jawdrop*
- "ehehehe"
For me that's just one of the aspects that make the scene the _scene_
All my non-scene friends ask me whoever did this or that "video".
- "well buddy, it fits in 64 kilobytes. A M$ Word doc if you will"
- *jawdrop*
- "ehehehe"
For me that's just one of the aspects that make the scene the _scene_
OK, same for demos at the current (and older, say lesser) file sizes
Well, there's difference in knowing and respecting the "phaakink roots" and being stuck in the glorified past. The power of modern PCs has increased rapidly, yet democompo rules has been pretty constant on most major parties lately. Why shouldn't demoscene try to adapt to that? Like Smash said, when there's plenty enough of processing power for all this stuff now, why should the compo rules restrict the artistic quality of the demo? Artistic value does not exclude good code.
When people moved from C64 to Amiga, they didn't try to make C64 demos on Amigas... Well some might've but the best ones didn't :p
When people moved from C64 to Amiga, they didn't try to make C64 demos on Amigas... Well some might've but the best ones didn't :p
I like how nobody actually seem to realize that they don't *have* to use all those precious megabytes? Shut up, go on and make a great demo in 8 megabytes. No amount of megabytes can solve crappy demomaking.
look ppl
that 64mb demo size limit just tells us a new farbrausch demo is comming... so stop whining and think how to beat them ;)
that 64mb demo size limit just tells us a new farbrausch demo is comming... so stop whining and think how to beat them ;)
i don't care how you spin it -- 64 mb is mad, mad overkill.
gloom: shut up and start using high-res textures!
