pouët.net

Spenot: Of course the database would be open source. Most of the data is already open.

Thread almost completely summarized in a single picture:

I don't get what's so bad about open sourcing...

I don't get all the "develop by itself" and the magical bugfixfairies nonsense.

With open code, you take the risk someone brave enough comes up with good ideas and enough motivation to make the big changes happen... With closed source, it's all on one's man shoulders.

Also, everywhere I read people commenting they feel good about people opening pull requests in their open sourced projects. There is a general feeling of satisfaction among indies when it happens. In many communities. But here, there's the fear of pull requests beeing overwhelming for the sole maintainer? (ok small group of maintainers?)

If the current code and db are that bad, you won't get much pull requests to close... And Pouet's code won't be in the sole hands of one person (which analogue as the creator objects)

I don't have anything against the whole opensourcing thing, be it for the current version or v2 or whatever.

What I don't understand is how one can misunderstand "laying the foundations of a new, robust codebase alone" for "owning pouet" and take it to such extremes as demonstrated in these last pages.

BoyC: Gargaj let the doubt float around, really.

so it's all about who decides what pouet codes become, and since there is no agreement between the creator and the maintainer... that's a mess :/

this is one of the weirdest moments in my demoscene life: I am 100% agreeing with lator.

Lator and Analogues arguments together, in less aggressive and straight forward put text, really makes sense to me.

I am glad the first and only admin to censor and moderate pouet for his own interest and agenda got locked out and I see a lot of that certain admins friends really but hurt and who who starts doing racist comments on analogues nationality. I hope things will get smoothed over, that gargaj and analogue can be friends and that pouet can go back to be an unmoderated and uncensored site run by several people from different demoscene regroupings.

Is there some risk, or blocking things, to open the public repo right now ? I think you should just open it, at least people not involved into this personnal drama may have a clue about the problem.

And even if this really doesnt matter for now, someone told Gargaj code is a fork, it may be easily ported to a branch then ?

my two euros.

analogue, this is why people fuss. It reeks of you not giving a shit about what anyone else thinks or wants.

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The point wasn't made that open source was bad, but that there's not really that many benefits here to doing it. Also, "closed" source doesn't automatically mean one person. You can have (and it certainly seems like there is) multiple people working on a private project. Gargaj has stated there's no issues inviting people in to that if they really want to help.

I just think to end this all people really need to slow down, calm down, and talk things out rationally outside of this thread instead of making brash decisions that put everyone off.

Lastly, we all need to quit posting in here and fanning flames! Everyone in here, myself included, is being overly silly!

i agree all the reasons for not open sourcing the code (to v2) are quite silly. even if the work to put it up there was completely in vain and nobody ever looks at the code it would at least kill this discussion.
really, wheres the danger? and why did it boil down to this fucking argument?

because everyone wants to get in the last word. (hehe)

D.Fox, mog: i can't accept you guys seriously think if this becomes open source no one would contribute. I get your point, and urge Analogue to make peace with Gargaj to accomplish it; that the current maintainers should be part of the process. ofcourse it's important. But you're all advocating "who cares, no one would fix anything anyways" and that's just plain silly. Ofcourse there needs to be a roadmap with vision and discussion, and some of it will be retarded for sure. But it's much better then "hei, can we have this idea implemented?", and other folks saying yeah that would be cool and gargaj replying "just wait for 2.0", on a subject that has been discussed _years_ before already and folks have actually did step up and said "i can do that, give me access" on several key issues, most got turned away because "just wait for 2.0 and then maybe i'll open source it".

So yeah, i understand Analogue's concearn that day will never come and support his "let's get this going" attitude.

But cutting Gargaj out, for this miss-communication bullshit is just stupid. I fear it just fueled more problems. I hope Analogue "fixes" this and him and Gargaj can have a proper talk on roadmap to get this open sourced and migrated to version 2.0

AMcBain: Well it is not like gargaj has had a history of being open and up for discussion during his reign as a pouet admin. or as lator so well put it:

About opensourcing, yes. However I don't recall him saying that noone would be allowed to touch or see the code...
Opensourcing the code and building a new version under the current system are two different debates, the only issue seems to be that opensourcing might hinder effort of the rewrite. I really don't see why there's a sudden rush to opensource the current code right now and why a reasonable timeline can't be decided on to make both a reality.

wysiwyg: where's the benefit in publishing unfinished code nobody understands?

That's the reason I'm putting of open sourcing Partymeister2 for 2 years now. There's just no point since it's ever changing and ever evolving according to my own plan. But still - when somebody asks I give a away the newest version so they can modify and build their own version of it. It's way more productive for me that way and I can use my time more efficiently.

Once it's stable and done evolving I plan to put it online for everybody to enjoy. But not before that.

Citation needed or I call bullshit.

It's an unfortunate fact of the internet that a community cannot keep going, in a meaningful way, without moderation.

If anything, gargaj has been too lenient IMO. And that's probably better than the alternative - SO EVEN THAT PART HE GOT RIGHT. Pretty much all of us would have done worse than he did.

Read the thread, nobody was against open sourcing v2, however opensourcing .9 is senseless.

Sorry to add to the noise, but...

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that how Google handles Android? It's developed behind closed doors then the code released once stable? If so, it seems to work for them.

Gargaj already proposed doing that, and the stampede trampled him.

I think we should let this thread go, and let them work it out together. We're not helping by continuing to post here with random repeats of the same arguments.

dfox: the reason nr. 1 is to kill this discussion. also i didnt say anything about right now, if gargaj feels like he needs 8 more weeks (or whatever) to clean it up or do documentation or finish it why not. i just want to read a commitment of him doing so, since i trust his words.
if you are afraid of people "interfering" with the site development youre not really a believer in open source, are you?

Just for the record: my access to the codebase/database ended about 4 years ago, when Pouet was hacked by the wholesale valves mafia (NB: historical details may not be precise. this isn't important right now) and the password was changed. I didn't ask for the new login details, because I wasn't actively working on Pouet at that point, and it would have just created the appearance of a conflict of interest (i.e.: certain people believed that I was only involved in Pouet in order to leech data for Demozoo).

D.Fox: you know just because something is open sourced doesnt mean you have to indulge on other people's development request whims, you can just run your own fork, whoever wants to grab things from there will do it, and you can still control if you want to merge pull requests or not. you might even notice someone could submit something useful to your repo now and again, like the documentation you never bothered to write. i'm just saying i fear your opinion is biased by your personal conendrum about open sourcing partymeister. and pouet is not partymeister.

oh is that so? i think that was gargajs diplomatic way of saying he doesnt believe open sourcing 2.0 will be any good. at least hes not ready to commit himself.
and he might have his good reasons too, just saying as long as he wont commit to it the discussion will last.

gasman: i think that was still on my watch, so it must have been 6-8 years ago and not 4. not that it matters, i was just doing the math.