3D acceleration kills the demoscene
category: offtopic [glöplog]
Lot of people say that DOS Demos are dead. I think DOS demos are more expressiv about the prog quality than the 3d Accelerated demos. The 3d acceleration is only for games I think. I've watched last OpenGl demos, and I laugh a lot !!
Demos-making under DOS is the best way to start. I think if John Carmack was borned later, he'll began DOS programming instead of OpenGl : Coders must know what they are coding before using hardware. Using hardware for demos isn't a good thing. DOS ISN'T DEAD !!! DOS is the best way to show what you can do, or what people can do with their brain, not with hardware. I think 3D accelerated demos are only videos. 3D acceleration kills the demoscene, sure.
Demos-making under DOS is the best way to start. I think if John Carmack was borned later, he'll began DOS programming instead of OpenGl : Coders must know what they are coding before using hardware. Using hardware for demos isn't a good thing. DOS ISN'T DEAD !!! DOS is the best way to show what you can do, or what people can do with their brain, not with hardware. I think 3D accelerated demos are only videos. 3D acceleration kills the demoscene, sure.
argh, another "<insert new hardware/chipset here> killed the scene" discussion. Get a grip Skarab, you're trolling.
My cat's breath smells like catfood.
DOS is the best way to ensure that people in win2k and winxp don't get any sound..
stupid people kills the demoscene.
"DOS is the best way to show .. what people can do with their brain"
if bbs/fidonet were still alive, I'd sure add this to my good old bullshit_taglines.txt.
if bbs/fidonet were still alive, I'd sure add this to my good old bullshit_taglines.txt.
Why suck w/ a VESA engine, different for every damn card, when I can simply add DDraw routines, and it will run on every freakin config I will encounter?
3D is the same. Although I prefer SW, HW is an option because it's fast, easy, looks cool... and you can concentrate on writing effects.
However, one thing is for sure IMHO:
One should learn to rotate a cube before using HW.
3D is the same. Although I prefer SW, HW is an option because it's fast, easy, looks cool... and you can concentrate on writing effects.
However, one thing is for sure IMHO:
One should learn to rotate a cube before using HW.
skarab: current hardware requires a far different kind of knowledge than "good old" software coding, it's neither good nor bad
what's relatively sad is that with current hardware, even "copy/paste coders" can release some stuffs that look impressive for the common run of people, and it might encourage themselves in their lazyness
sagacity: feed your cat with some Channel N°5
what's relatively sad is that with current hardware, even "copy/paste coders" can release some stuffs that look impressive for the common run of people, and it might encourage themselves in their lazyness
sagacity: feed your cat with some Channel N°5
I agree with Gargaj. HW makes things ( a little ) easier, and give you the time to focus on far more important things than HW/SW debate ^__^
Everyone who says that writing software stuff is easier (or more difficult) than hardware accelerated stuff instantly proves that he is a total loser at both.
End of discussion.
End of discussion.
Scarab, you are a lamer for coding on MSDOS. If you want to be a real man, you should code on IRIX.
And if you don't accept my propaganda, I will certainly not accept yours.
And if you make a DOS demo, you can count me out on watching it, because I quit that nasty habbit a few years back.
Have a nice (and multitasked) day.
And if you don't accept my propaganda, I will certainly not accept yours.
And if you make a DOS demo, you can count me out on watching it, because I quit that nasty habbit a few years back.
Have a nice (and multitasked) day.
that scarab model citizen is not even a good troll
Hardware isn't going to go away. We'll just have to learn to live with it. Life is a two way street. Stay on the right side (or whatever it is in your locality) or get run over.
That would be the same as stating that photoshop killed the demosene.
Hang on. How the hell is watching DOS demos a bad habit? Should we just pretend Second Reality et al never existed?
I prefer various methods and styles of demo making.
Bah, the problem is not hardware acc. The real problem is coders who don't know how to use it. Okay, we had the whole thing with the first accelerators that really could only draw polygons and basically that was it. So what did we get from that? A bunch of spheres being distorted and and some f_ boring 3D demos.
Right now I'm coding a lot of GBA. Isn't having hardware that can plot (rotated/zoomed) sprites the same as hw acc.? Even the C64 had sprite support, the amiga had a blitter. Some great effects where done by people who saw the potential of using such hw properties in ways never thought of before.
So where does that leave us? I think we as a demoscene have exploited the 3D cards as being polyplotters enough. Now there are cards on the market (a GF2 doesn't cost shit these days) that can plot a zillion polygons, render to texture and have all kinds of neat effects for us to exploit. So why don't we? Maybe we are afraid that our prod won't run on 100% of the machines out there. That's a big problem, but personally, I'd rather make a demo that impresses 75% of the people who are able to watch it than doing another demo that is really much of the same for a broader audience.
I wonder where the real innovation is. Perhaps the lack of great acc. demos is not the presence of hardware, but the lack of it in the DOS era. Perhaps coders forgot how to exploit hardware and got lazy. Perhaps the coders among us have forgotten that because the box of a piece of hardware states it has certain uses it cannot be used for other things. Wasn't the original purpose of making demos impressing people with things they thought wasn't possible on their hardware?
Sure we have had a hard time when our hw could only plot polygons and didn't leave much room for tweaking and strange tricks. But I think the new generation of cards is capable of a lot. I hope people will use and embrace this new technology as the PC scene has always done with new hardware and capabilities. It is was sets us apart from fixed platform scenes. It's easy to say everything was better in the past and that we should only make software rendered demos, but it's harder to come up with ways to really impress people on the new hw.
just my 2 (drunk) eurocents
/Inopia^Aardbei
Right now I'm coding a lot of GBA. Isn't having hardware that can plot (rotated/zoomed) sprites the same as hw acc.? Even the C64 had sprite support, the amiga had a blitter. Some great effects where done by people who saw the potential of using such hw properties in ways never thought of before.
So where does that leave us? I think we as a demoscene have exploited the 3D cards as being polyplotters enough. Now there are cards on the market (a GF2 doesn't cost shit these days) that can plot a zillion polygons, render to texture and have all kinds of neat effects for us to exploit. So why don't we? Maybe we are afraid that our prod won't run on 100% of the machines out there. That's a big problem, but personally, I'd rather make a demo that impresses 75% of the people who are able to watch it than doing another demo that is really much of the same for a broader audience.
I wonder where the real innovation is. Perhaps the lack of great acc. demos is not the presence of hardware, but the lack of it in the DOS era. Perhaps coders forgot how to exploit hardware and got lazy. Perhaps the coders among us have forgotten that because the box of a piece of hardware states it has certain uses it cannot be used for other things. Wasn't the original purpose of making demos impressing people with things they thought wasn't possible on their hardware?
Sure we have had a hard time when our hw could only plot polygons and didn't leave much room for tweaking and strange tricks. But I think the new generation of cards is capable of a lot. I hope people will use and embrace this new technology as the PC scene has always done with new hardware and capabilities. It is was sets us apart from fixed platform scenes. It's easy to say everything was better in the past and that we should only make software rendered demos, but it's harder to come up with ways to really impress people on the new hw.
just my 2 (drunk) eurocents
/Inopia^Aardbei
I haven't told that hardware demos are easier to create than SW, I think only that newbies must begin with soft demos (hardware doesn't exist to create shit demos), me I prefer prog DOS demos to begin.
moT: I see you have created NOTHING for the demoscene, so go away...I don't know why you are here ? To download and watch demos ? You have a computer and not a television ?
I'have make this BBS for demomakers, not for %$!...
moT: I see you have created NOTHING for the demoscene, so go away...I don't know why you are here ? To download and watch demos ? You have a computer and not a television ?
I'have make this BBS for demomakers, not for %$!...
Skarab: I have created nothing for the demoscene. I am here because I like to watch demos. And no, I don't have a television. Why are you here?
Me, I am here because I've coded 4/5 hours, I'am creating a DOS demo (320*200 16M), and I want to have little of funny time, and I've read your %:!; text, I prefer go to sleep..
Thom: try to sell your computer, you'll can buy a television...just an idee
art is not only for artists
Art is not only for artist, but if artist are killed, art is killed
I have just the feeling that I can enjoy only a very few of the upcoming Mekka demos because my hardware will not be powerful enough to watch them (just read about the used compo machine).
Crest: ...and boy, you don't want to know how many people actually COMPLAINED about this being not enoug...
Skarab: What does coding trifillers or a transform pipeline teach you you wouldn't need for hw accel anyway?
It's not like the amount of shit demos is any higher or lower than it has ever been...
Inopia: Most people simply don't care about trying out what can be done with current hardware - and it's really suprising how many people think you need pixel shaders to do reasonable speed blurs in hw :) Well, not my problem :)
Skarab: What does coding trifillers or a transform pipeline teach you you wouldn't need for hw accel anyway?
It's not like the amount of shit demos is any higher or lower than it has ever been...
Inopia: Most people simply don't care about trying out what can be done with current hardware - and it's really suprising how many people think you need pixel shaders to do reasonable speed blurs in hw :) Well, not my problem :)